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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2019 16:11:41 GMT -5
@ralph
Thanks for your explanation to my question. I have one more related to the clock puzzle. I had noticed in the "Ms. Einstein" page, the clock seemed off -- as in the hash marks between the numbers are only three instead of the typical four a clock would have on its face. Is this something you accounted for when you did your solve or did you not consider it an issue? I always took it at face value (pardon the pun) and saw it as something one would have to adjust the time for (i.e. 12-1 would be 4 minutes instead of 5). Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2019 18:22:43 GMT -5
@ralph Thanks for your explanation to my question. I have one more related to the clock puzzle. I had noticed in the "Ms. Einstein" page, the clock seemed off -- as in the hash marks between the numbers are only three instead of the typical four a clock would have on its face. Is this something you accounted for when you did your solve or did you not consider it an issue? I always took it at face value (pardon the pun) and saw it as something one would have to adjust the time for (i.e. 12-1 would be 4 minutes instead of 5). Thanks! For one with so few posts, you have a remarkable attention to detail! The hour markings on that page look correct to me (one for each hour) although 11:00 does look a little early. As far as the second hand goes, the only thing that matters, at least as far as my solve is concerned, is that it is a bit before 12 on page 40, and that the second hand on page 11 is a little after. On the other hand, it is important that the minute hand be just about at 5 minutes after the hour in both cases so that they are comparable.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 10:30:44 GMT -5
"Hi ursalove,
That is an excellent question that goes right to the heart of puzzle design. The challenge for a clue setter is to very precisely calibrate the difficulty of a clue in order that it not be too easy or too hard. In short, the other two clocks are red herrings, and there are three good reasons to think so. First of all, if they were absent, we would only be dealing with the other two clocks. This would make the overall clue too easy. Secondly, no matter how hard you try, there is no way to integrate the times on the four clocks in a logical way. Consequently, we would either need to throw out the whole clue or ditch something. This brings us to the third, and strongest, reason. The two primary clocks have three things in common: (1) they have hour, minute, and second hands (2) the minute hands are the same distance from 12, and (3) so are the second hands. This tells us that we should look at them together. The other two clocks lack these features.
Initially, I was concerned about the fact that the other two clocks didn't "fit," but once I figured out the puzzle and saw how it worked, I was ok with it.
Again, thanks for your question. When I originally posted back in February I was hoping to get more like it...
Ralph"
@ralph - to your point, I've also just noticed that these two clocks have some representation of numerical values (in the form of Roman numerals) while the two you left out do not have values placed on the hash marks. Thank you again for the clarification!
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Post by susb8383 on Mar 31, 2019 16:50:13 GMT -5
Incidentally, why do you refer to that picture as "Ms Einstein?"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 17:49:15 GMT -5
Incidentally, why do you refer to that picture as "Ms Einstein?" First, she kind of looks like him. Secondly, the fox moves through a three-dimensional path (a helix) over a period of time, bringing to mind Einstein's (originally Minkowski's) concept of spacetime. The corresponding 3+1=4 theme crops up in several key places, and in particular, in the solution to the riddle.
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Post by wgardner on May 31, 2019 19:40:25 GMT -5
Ralph,
Thank you for your work. I am trying to replicate the spreadsheets shown in the images you attached to your original post in this thread. I have a few questions.
1. Can you tell me how to generate the color values for the stars shown in column 3? For example, let's look at row 66 corresponding to the very first star in the lower left corner of page 5 (ORBRB, as shown in columns 5-9). From your description, I thought I would take the colors from the left and bottom sides (as this start is in the bottom left), which are correspondingly Left=R=5 and Bottom=O=3, add them together mod 5 = (5 + 3)mod5 = 8mod5 = 3 = O. But instead of O in column 3 I see B. Can you tell me how to compute the column 3 color, walking through this example for this first star on row 66, and maybe a few others?
2. Most importantly, once the polybius decodings are done, how do you select the highlighted letters to form the riddle? For example, again in row 66, why do you pick the X and not the other 9 letters? In row 64, why do you pick the P, O, and S? Please elaborate on the system here if possible.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide, Bill (new MW poster)
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 21:30:43 GMT -5
Ralph, Thank you for your work. I am trying to replicate the spreadsheets shown in the images you attached to your original post in this thread. I have a few questions. 1. Can you tell me how to generate the color values for the stars shown in column 3? For example, let's look at row 66 corresponding to the very first star in the lower left corner of page 5 (ORBRB, as shown in columns 5-9). From your description, I thought I would take the colors from the left and bottom sides (as this start is in the bottom left), which are correspondingly Left=R=5 and Bottom=O=3, add them together mod 5 = (5 + 3)mod5 = 8mod5 = 3 = O. But instead of O in column 3 I see B. Can you tell me how to compute the column 3 color, walking through this example for this first star on row 66, and maybe a few others? 2. Most importantly, once the polybius decodings are done, how do you select the highlighted letters to form the riddle? For example, again in row 66, why do you pick the X and not the other 9 letters? In row 64, why do you pick the P, O, and S? Please elaborate on the system here if possible. Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide, Bill (new MW poster) Welcome wgardner! Let's go back to row 66. The B in column 3 is the color assigned to that corner, using the method I described in section 6 of my initial post. In short, two sides (or in some cases, one side and one vertical pink connector) meet at each corner, and the modulo approach is used to derive a single color from them. This is the ONLY step in the solution requiring the modulo approach. The Polybius squares require two inputs: the color from column 3, in this case B, and the five colors from the corresponding star points, which as you pointed out, are ORBRB. We then read off the Polybius square's output letter for each of the following five combinations: B-O B-R B-B B-R B-B We get XVZVZ. The second set of five letters, now using the second Polybius square, similarly yields LJNJN. I hope this clears things up for you! I could do a little better if I was with book, but it is far away at the moment. I'll be with it on Monday. Regarding your second question, the designers of the puzzle probably feared that, once the two panels were generated, a very straightforward way to read off the riddle would render the puzzle to easy to solve. The "meandering river" approach has appeared in other puzzles and word games in the past. The key is to carefully calibrate the number of entries in each row. If there are too few, the answer will jump right out at you; if there are too many, the puzzle will defy solution. Five is just about right, but the brothers probably thought that this was still a bit too easy and mandated that we bounce back and forth between the two panels. If you try to create sentences this way with the wrong Polybius squares, you rarely get beyond three or four consecutive letters, primarily because there are so few vowels. Once I found the right ones, the sentences lit up. It turns out that X is used as a form of punctuation marking the end of a line of the riddle. It therefore fit naturally at the very end of the puzzle. I have been doing puzzles of this kind for many years, and this particular sub-puzzle struck me as something that would have been designed by a master puzzle designer. To my knowledge, the is the first foray of the Stockwell brothers into this arena and I am struck by just how good it is.
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Post by wgardner on Jun 1, 2019 5:17:14 GMT -5
1. Can you tell me how to generate the color values for the stars shown in column 3? For example, let's look at row 66 corresponding to the very first star in the lower left corner of page 5 (ORBRB, as shown in columns 5-9). From your description, I thought I would take the colors from the left and bottom sides (as this start is in the bottom left), which are correspondingly Left=R=5 and Bottom=O=3, add them together mod 5 = (5 + 3)mod5 = 8mod5 = 3 = O. But instead of O in column 3 I see B. Can you tell me how to compute the column 3 color, walking through this example for this first star on row 66, and maybe a few others? Let's go back to row 66. The B in column 3 is the color assigned to that corner, using the method I described in section 6 of my initial post. In short, two sides (or in some cases, one side and one vertical pink connector) meet at each corner, and the modulo approach is used to derive a single color from them. This is the ONLY step in the solution requiring the modulo approach. Thanks for your reply. The problem is that I try to replicate what you describe in section 6 of your post and I get a different color. Again, for row 66, I take the color of the left side and the color of the bottom side, and add them mod 5, to get Left=R=5 + Bottom=O=3 = 8 mod 5 = 3 = O, but your spreadsheet shows a B in column 3 for row 66 instead of an O. Can you walk through this process specifically for row 66 to show exactly how you do it for this row, and what I'm doing wrong? I understand the remaining process (how to get the right-most columns from column 3, columns 5-9, and the 2 polybius squares).
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Post by wgardner on Jun 1, 2019 5:33:54 GMT -5
2. Most importantly, once the polybius decodings are done, how do you select the highlighted letters to form the riddle? For example, again in row 66, why do you pick the X and not the other 9 letters? In row 64, why do you pick the P, O, and S? Please elaborate on the system here if possible. Regarding your second question, the designers of the puzzle probably feared that, once the two panels were generated, a very straightforward way to read off the riddle would render the puzzle to easy to solve. The "meandering river" approach has appeared in other puzzles and word games in the past. The key is to carefully calibrate the number of entries in each row. If there are too few, the answer will jump right out at you; if there are too many, the puzzle will defy solution. Five is just about right, but the brothers probably thought that this was still a bit too easy and mandated that we bounce back and forth between the two panels. So again, just to clarify, once you have the 10 letters per star, there is no fixed method for picking which letters or how many letters to use to extract the riddle? It would seem as though one could extract a number of different riddles from the large number of letters (e.g., just from rows 1-10 instead of A GOLDEN HARPY... one could construct A HOME OF BUG... or A FOOL MADE OF BUGGY EGG...).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 6:02:31 GMT -5
Regarding your second question, the designers of the puzzle probably feared that, once the two panels were generated, a very straightforward way to read off the riddle would render the puzzle to easy to solve. The "meandering river" approach has appeared in other puzzles and word games in the past. The key is to carefully calibrate the number of entries in each row. If there are too few, the answer will jump right out at you; if there are too many, the puzzle will defy solution. Five is just about right, but the brothers probably thought that this was still a bit too easy and mandated that we bounce back and forth between the two panels. So again, just to clarify, once you have the 10 letters per star, there is no fixed method for picking which letters or how many letters to use to extract the riddle? It would seem as though one could extract a number of different riddles from the large number of letters (e.g., just from rows 1-10 instead of A GOLDEN HARPY... one could construct A HOME OF BUG... or A FOOL MADE OF BUGGY EGG...). Excellent question. Until this point in my solve of the puzzle, everything was pretty rigid. At this last stage things seem to get uncomfortably loose. Again, this is a consequence of selecting the right Polybius squares, which results in a significant increase in the number of vowels with which you can work. Two points. First, all ten letters are not quite treated equally. One usually has to stay on one panel long enough to generate a meaningful string, but not always. More importantly, the sentences have to make some kind of sense, in contrast to your two examples. Consider the first sentence of the riddle in my solve. A harpy is a bird. Birds preen, and later, of course, "Golden Harp" will be found to have separate relevance. So yes, it does take a bit of a leap of faith to generate the sentences, but if you work with the panels long enough, you will find that these are the word strings that seem to make by far the most sense, and again, you have the helpful Xs to identify where they stop and another starts. At the end of the day, the true test is whether the riddle hangs together and clearly points to a specific location. I maintain that my solution does that, and the generation of "Paddy's Twin" is an excellent example of how. That's about the best I can do. If I have any other thoughts after my coffee wakes me up this morning, I'll share them. Don't despair. We will all find out next November, or perhaps sooner!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 7:21:23 GMT -5
Let's go back to row 66. The B in column 3 is the color assigned to that corner, using the method I described in section 6 of my initial post. In short, two sides (or in some cases, one side and one vertical pink connector) meet at each corner, and the modulo approach is used to derive a single color from them. This is the ONLY step in the solution requiring the modulo approach. Thanks for your reply. The problem is that I try to replicate what you describe in section 6 of your post and I get a different color. Again, for row 66, I take the color of the left side and the color of the bottom side, and add them mod 5, to get Left=R=5 + Bottom=O=3 = 8 mod 5 = 3 = O, but your spreadsheet shows a B in column 3 for row 66 instead of an O. Can you walk through this process specifically for row 66 to show exactly how you do it for this row, and what I'm doing wrong? I understand the remaining process (how to get the right-most columns from column 3, columns 5-9, and the 2 polybius squares). This is the trickiest corner in the puzzle, so it's not surprising you had a problem with it. The color of each corner is assigned based on the colors of the incoming leg and the outgoing leg. This particular corner, because it corresponds to the end of the fox's fall, has no outgoing leg. The solution is to assign to it the one that would have been there if the fox had kept going, which in this case is a vertical (pink) connector. Furthermore, the other leg (the bottom) switches to the even-paneled color system because it is the last stop for the fox on this level. Consequently it will be yellow, rather than orange. So we have Y + P = B. Several of the sub-puzzles come into play here, so you might want to go back and read through the lead off post. Let me know if you're still stuck.
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Post by stiparest on Jun 2, 2019 10:00:09 GMT -5
ralph, thank you for all your work and for answering everybody's questions! I have also been trying to duplicate what you did with your spreadsheet. I apologize if you have already answered these questions!
1. How did you decide where to start on each star? I thought maybe you started with the highest point on each star, but I compared your spreadsheet with the stars and you did not always do this.
For example, on page 5 you started with the following points: Lower left corner, orange point. The blue point to the left of it is the highest point on this star Lower right corner, red point. This is the highest point on this star Upper right corner, yellow point. The red point next to it is at the same height. Upper left corner, red point. The red point next to it is slightly higher.
Starting one point over in either direction would completely change the pattern and the spreadsheet. Did you have a system for exactly which point you started on?
2. This is not really a question, but I had wondered how you selected the letters you did for the riddle. Wgardner asked this too. I meandered down the spreadsheet as you said, and came up with a number of different possibilities for a riddle. Here is one example:
Dayz lost on face, ivy a siege web. [X] Now a meek fort, I was made in mind to love ivy spot. Try port - if you look at bay, Stop, spy top flag. [X]
The French built a fort on Somes Sound overlooking the bay, and there are ruins on the island covered with ivy, maybe even where the fort was. I found other sentences using your spreadsheet that point to other places. And sometimes a string of words that did not make much sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2019 10:22:01 GMT -5
ralph, thank you for all your work and for answering everybody's questions! I have also been trying to duplicate what you did with your spreadsheet. I apologize if you have already answered these questions! 1. How did you decide where to start on each star? I thought maybe you started with the highest point on each star, but I compared your spreadsheet with the stars and you did not always do this. For example, on page 5 you started with the following points: Lower left corner, orange point. The blue point to the left of it is the highest point on this star Lower right corner, red point. This is the highest point on this star Upper right corner, yellow point. The red point next to it is at the same height. Upper left corner, red point. The red point next to it is slightly higher. Starting one point over in either direction would completely change the pattern and the spreadsheet. Did you have a system for exactly which point you started on? 2. This is not really a question, but I had wondered how you selected the letters you did for the riddle. Wgardner asked this too. I meandered down the spreadsheet as you said, and came up with a number of different possibilities for a riddle. Here is one example: Dayz lost on face, ivy a siege web. [X] Now a meek fort, I was made in mind to love ivy spot. Try port - if you look at bay, Stop, spy top flag. [X] The French built a fort on Somes Sound overlooking the bay, and there are ruins on the island covered with ivy, maybe even where the fort was. I found other sentences using your spreadsheet that point to other places. And sometimes a string of words that did not make much sense. Hi stiparest- One nice feature of the "meandering river" approach is that it is not contingent upon a rigid system for ordering the points on a particular star, and there is no natural way to choose one anyway. For example, if one decides to go clockwise from the top, they will run into the occasional problem of the perfectly vertical point. Should it be first or last? Anyway, I thought it could not hurt to try and stay relatively consistent, so I chose to go clockwise from the top. As you have noticed, I may have occasionally strayed from this choice. The bottom line is that my solve doesn't require a rigid system for ordering the star points. As you pointed out, your second question is pretty much the same one wgardener asked me yesterday morning, and I'll refer you to my response to him. In short, while you very well can use the meandering river strategy to come up with various strings of words, if you constrain yourself to strings that (1) make some kind of sense and (2) exploit the fact that Xs are used as periods (i.e. they mark the ends of phrases) you will probably wind up with the same ones I did. The one that jumps out most clearly is GOLDEN HARPY PREENS from the top of the first panel. This may have been deliberate because it serves two purposes: it provides a gentle introduction to the meandering river approach, and it also is our first hint that we may need the second panel as well because we need it to secure the lead off letter A. One other thought that I may not have shared so far: It seems to me that when the text includes a reference to wind (there are quite a number) this may be a signal to get blown over to the other panel. I hope this helps.
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