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Post by npsbuilder on Sept 14, 2019 14:01:06 GMT -5
Just finished this thread and it reminded me of a sermon about the first 4 book of the new testament and how Matthew, Mark and Luke all say almost the same thing and that Mark and Luke possibly copied what Mark had written (paraphrasing here). The Book of John is from the same period of reference and conflicts to what the 3 others say even though all 4 were there together and later wrote about their time with Jesus. Structures or not is just a distraction and both may be correct depending on how someone sees it in their interpretation.
Back on topic...Heavy loads and water high feels like it helps to describe what the entire 3rd Stanza is about. So, what is this stanza saying or describing?
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Post by richard on Sept 14, 2019 14:30:04 GMT -5
Generally I have two or three interpretations for each clue. The exception being the theory I am currently working on. All but one of the first eight clues came about with no qualms. The HOB clue took knowledge and research to find. Some will try to dismiss it as a quark. I don't believe in that for a second. If I did I would buy lottery tickets rather than go on the Chase. I know I talk a lot about this without telling any one what it is, but bear with my excitement over it until September 28, then you might understand my excitement and cause for secrecy. I will tell every one what it is. I will say Forrest is either going to love me or hate me for it.
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Post by npsbuilder on Sept 14, 2019 16:35:25 GMT -5
Generally I have two or three interpretations for each clue. The exception being the theory I am currently working on. All but one of the first eight clues came about with no qualms. The HOB clue took knowledge and research to find. Some will try to dismiss it as a quark. I don't believe in that for a second. If I did I would buy lottery tickets rather than go on the Chase. I know I talk a lot about this without telling any one what it is, but bear with my excitement over it until September 28, then you might understand my excitement and cause for secrecy. I will tell every one what it is. I will say Forrest is either going to love me or hate me for it. Your excitement and enthusiasm has me excited for you. I hope the best of weather and that only good karma follows you on your quest. Take the chest and selfie for us all to see. Happy Trails to You.
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Post by richard on Sept 14, 2019 18:37:38 GMT -5
Generally I have two or three interpretations for each clue. The exception being the theory I am currently working on. All but one of the first eight clues came about with no qualms. The HOB clue took knowledge and research to find. Some will try to dismiss it as a quark. I don't believe in that for a second. If I did I would buy lottery tickets rather than go on the Chase. I know I talk a lot about this without telling any one what it is, but bear with my excitement over it until September 28, then you might understand my excitement and cause for secrecy. I will tell every one what it is. I will say Forrest is either going to love me or hate me for it. Your excitement and enthusiasm has me excited for you. I hope the best of weather and that only good karma follows you on your quest. Take the chest and selfie for us all to see. Happy Trails to You. Thank you.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Sept 15, 2019 1:09:10 GMT -5
If a manmade structure plays any part in your solution, then stay home and play Canasta. ("Zapster analysis of the compendium of Forrest's relevant remarks") Are you the "Zapster"? If so, please so indicate. I could not find anything at Tarry Scant to corroborate your assertion. Provide documentation of Fenn's "relevant remarks", please. And then explain why those remarks are not included at Tarry Scant under the keywords "structure" or "manmade" or "Canasta". Hi Drifter: yes -- sorry. I'm zapster on YouTube and THOR, but the longer somewhat enigmatic name here and on Dal's. Didn't mean to mix -n- match.
My conclusion about the manmade structure issue is still just an opinion. But it is the simplest, most logical explanation for all of Forrest's comments. Yes, Occam's Razor can fail, but I don't think this is one of those exceptions.
The whole topic reminds me of Forrest's discussion about the chest being in water: "Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn't want moisture to enter the jar." That was June 2014. But then 3 years later (following unfortunate searcher drowning deaths), we got greater clarification:
"When I said the treasure was not hidden in Utah or Idaho it was my plan not to narrow the search area further. But in the light of a recent accident, and in the interest of safety, I feel it necessary to alter that plan. The treasure chest is not under water, nor is it near the Rio Grande River."
The progression reveals a little bit about Forrest's thinking process: he went from "not read to say" to basically "now I'm saying."
The manmade structure issue, in my mind, is similar. From Scrapbook 35 (4/17/2013): "I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true."
A little over a year later, a searcher wants to try to establish what Forrest means by "associated with":
MW Q&A (6/30/2014): "Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d"
FF: "Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information. f"
An ambiguous answer (typical Fenn). It's unfortunate that "d" gave Forrest a choice; it would have been better if he/she ended the question at "... did that mean all 9 clues?" He answers in the affirmative, but affirmative to which? All 9 clues, or just where the chest sits? (Or both!)
But the answer to which is finally resolved (at least to my satisfaction) by Cynthia's mention of the use of the CCC cabin as her home of Brown. I see only two conclusions that can be drawn from Forrest admonishing her "Don't you remember? I said it can’t be associated with a structure." Either home of Brown is co-located with the treasure chest, and therefore saying the treasure isn't associated with a structure is no different than saying home of Brown isn't. Or: home of Brown is not located particularly close to the treasure, and therefore Forrest is implying that neither the treasure chest nor home of Brown are associated with manmade structures. But if that's true, then we have "d's" answer: it can only mean all 9 clues, because the alternative is "just where the treasure sits" which would be exclusive of a non-nearby home of Brown.
Which of these two alternatives is more revealing? I think most would agree that admitting that home of Brown is essentially right next to the treasure would be a rather important clue. Whereas just saying that no structures are associated with any of the clues reveals nothing about the relative locations of the clues. Also consider: which alternative would be a case of providing critical private information to Cynthia? After all, Cynthia was under no obligation to share this exchange with the searcher community. The Occam Razor answer is that none of the clues is associated with a manmade structure.
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Post by davebakedpotato on Sept 15, 2019 8:12:12 GMT -5
Goodness me. The potato's 10 cents is thus:
If any part of your solution relies on a structure (which you should be sure of the meaning of), it would need to be of such a permanence as to be reasonably sure of lasting the test of time.
There are very few such structures in the Rocky Mountains.
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Post by crm114 on Sept 15, 2019 10:21:38 GMT -5
Goodness me. The potato's 10 cents is thus: If any part of your solution relies on a structure (which you should be sure of the meaning of), it would need to be of such a permanence as to be reasonably sure of lasting the test of time. There are very few such structures in the Rocky Mountains. We are always supposed to have a good map. Presumably future searchers will need a good map from our time. There are lots of structures on good maps.
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Post by Bownarrow on Sept 15, 2019 10:51:41 GMT -5
I have quoted this definition of a structure from the book 'Structures - or why things don't fall down' elsewhere: "A structure has been defined as any assemblage of materials which is intended to sustain loads"
The book goes on to say:
...after all, every plant and animal and nearly all the works of man have to sustain greater or less mechanical forces without breaking, and so practically everything is a structure of one kind or another."
Given this definition of a structure, can anyone think of any place where the treasure might be that is not associated with a structure?
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Post by zaphod73491 on Sept 15, 2019 19:36:29 GMT -5
Hi Drifter:
"While I can appreciate the significance of "Occam's Razor" in many situations, I don't think one can necessarily apply it to this hunt. Forrest no doubt is aware of this well-known principle. But he is also in some ways a nonconformist, a person who might want to create a poem interpretation that deliberately counters OR."
To your point, I think most solutions are either too simple (an overly restrictive exercise of OR) or extremely convoluted (no exercise of OR at all). I would say more solutions fall into the latter category, which is perhaps what prompted Forrest's recommendation to "Simplify." And since Forrest frequently mentions Einstein, I like to think maybe subconsciously he's suggesting that a Goldilocks approach is needed. Einstein has been credited with saying "Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler" (though I'd say there is considerable doubt about that attribution). Anyway, I think the solution will turn out to be "elegant" and/or "clever," as opposed to "Oh, duh!"
"... But the idea of all 9 clues being free of manmade structure is so restrictive. For example, to me a road is a structure. Yet your above assertion doesn't even allow a road to be part of one's solution. How can that be?"
To me, a road could go either way as to whether it fits Forrest's definition. Depends on how anal someone wants to get about it. Molecules are structures; if I strike a match, have I created a manmade structure? I caused a chemical reaction to occur (oxidation) leading to the creation of a new arrangement (i.e. structure) of atoms. A road is composed of different materials, and certainly most would agree that "a construction zone" (road work) implies a "structure" is involved.
But let's face it, when someone says the words "manmade structure," a road is not the first or the tenth idea to come to mind. Bridges: sure; dams: obviously. When I think of generic structures, I tend to envision objects composed of two or more parts that have length, width AND height. So this is why I put roads into a gray area.
I believe a road is involved in navigating the first few clues, but that the road itself is not one of the clues. As such, I do not believe we are to walk all the clues. Not that you couldn't, but why walk further than you have to?
"And Forrest has said that most of the clues can be solved from home."
Oh, I think they ALL can, but you'll still have to be onsite to see something that cannot be seen on Google Earth or any map.
"I know there has been some interest in an "observational" type solution, where one stands at some magical spot and "views" out over the landscape to see other clues."
Yes, the Seeker solution. I'm not a fan.
"One problem with that, among many problems, is that Forrest has said the clues are in consecutive order. There's no way that "consecutive" rule could apply if you're looking out over the landscape to see 3, 4, or 5 such clues; there's no guaranteed "consecutive" in the seeing; it's all random, seeing clue 6 first, then clue 4, then clue 3, then clue 7..."
A good argument. But I still think the instruction "Take it in the canyon down" pretty much kills the stay-in-place-and-observe idea.
"By contrast, finding nine clues in consecutive order, with each clue being independent of any other clue is much more difficult; searcher could fail at any point in that 9 clue tour. And that sounds more like what Forrest had in mind."
Completely agree. And if the first half of my solution has been correct the last 2+ years, there is a very good reason why searchers could solve the first two clues and then get flummoxed (which seems to be exactly what happened).
"Back to what you refer to as Forrest's thinking process. I have long felt that searchers put Forrest on a pedestal; he never makes a mistake, every word he speaks is with great purpose; anything he says about the poem or clues has great import; and if there are any inconsistencies or contradictions, they must be intentional."
I think he's as fallible as anyone else, and he's even proved it on several occasions. The famous pinon nut comment, of course. He also once said the treasure was buried -- and didn't even realize he had (by mistake). He has made unintentional mistakes reciting his own poem from memory, e.g. "If you've been brave and in the wood".
The inconsistencies or errors that interest me are the ones that are clearly deliberate. Forrest even admits to doing this to see if people are paying attention. Are there hints occasionally being delivered in these aberrations? That's what searchers have to decide.
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omni
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Post by omni on Sept 16, 2019 0:05:54 GMT -5
Just to add my simple 2 cents, I do believe they are 2 separate locations.
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Post by davebakedpotato on Sept 16, 2019 6:32:36 GMT -5
An Australian court ruled that a road is a structure: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bicksteele.com.au/news/2017/11/28/is-a-road-a-structure%3fformat=ampThey do have 3 dimensions - many layers deep, and obvious engineered features e.g. drainage. But we may come back to whether Forrest meant it to apply to the final location or each clue (assuming they all relate to locations). My understanding is this was stated to stop people digging up outhouses and underneath other structures, so pertains to the final resting place.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 10:26:05 GMT -5
If you are looking back up while standing on the circle at G, or seven, you will not only realize what water is but you will also see H and I... Give me nine days, and I will have reached my goaled. Huh?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 14:57:41 GMT -5
Deciphering the clues meanings in order,When I finally found my HOB it lead me to NPFTM and to locate something. And what I found was that stanza 3's last three sentences are all in one the same thing.
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omni
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Post by omni on Oct 1, 2019 17:20:30 GMT -5
To answer the beginning question, I'm thinking they may at least be in the same place. Otherwise he would say "heavy loads THEN water high". He is pretty precise with his language.
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