The evolution of a poem purist.

[seannm]

All,

 There has been quite the discourse about what is or is not required in order to solve Forrest Fenn's poem and recover indulgence, and while this has been heated at times, I believe it can be helpful in creating a base-line for what really is required. There has also been, in my opinion, a long standing condescending outlook upon those who consider themselves a poem purist.  Now while I cannot speak for everyone, allow me to once again provide some clarity to what I believe a poem purist is, how I evolved into one, and what I believe, as a poem purist, is minimally required in order to solve this riddle. All in the hope that we can find some common ground.  

When I started this endeavor, much like each and everyone else, I immediately made some naive assumptions about the meaning of key words and phrases found within the poem.  These initial thoughts were only echoed throughout the forums by those who could be considered veterans of the chase. Therefore, it was easy to believe that these veterans may have been smarter than I or further ahead in the chase, so how was I to stand a chance? So like many others I ran with the herd, so to say, and ignored what the poem was trying to tell me, this was an invaluable lesson. 

When I failed I stepped back and assessed what I, and possibly all before me were doing wrong.  And in my opinion, we were not listening good, because there was just too much noise, too many rabbit holes, if you know what I mean. And while everything, outside of the poem, may be helpful for some it may also be more information than is required, and can cause too much clutter in ones mind (forest for the trees). So I then cleared my thoughts and shut everything else but the poem out, and I listened, and only then did I begin to hear what it was telling me.

So for me, being a poem purist is having the belief and faith that indeed all the information that I needed to find the treasure was found within the poem, but this information obviously still needed to be decoded, so to speak. So for me, as a poem purist, researching the meaning of words, a good understanding of grammar, and the basic ability to read a map, was of the greatest importance.  Everything else, in my opinion, was just noise. And I can now go back and see those subtle connections, and understand that while none of it was required it could have been helpful.

And again it matters not how one arrives at the solution, it only matters that one does.

Seannm

[wymustigo]

May 15, 2017 10:47:40 GMT -5 seannm said:

So for me, being a poem purist is having the belief and faith that indeed all the information that I needed to find the treasure was found within the poem, but this information obviously still needed to be decoded, so to speak. So for me, as a poem purist, researching the meaning of words, a good understanding of grammar, and the basic ability to read a map, was of the greatest importance. 

If that is a purist, than I agree with that assessment.  The only thing I would add is TTOTC because that is where the poem was released.  If you can read that book (which obviously includes the poem) and understand what you are reading, no research beyond that is required.  If you do not know things like who John Clarles is, or that Redford was involved in book(s), you will not pick up those specific things which might or might not be hints, but that is NOT going to prevent you from finding the chest.  The hints are NOT required in a solid solution, only the correct interpretation of the clues is required.  A deep understanding of literature and western history is not required to decode the poem, its only use would be to find the hints which might help with the clues, but if you know this stuff already, then you will see it without doing any research.

The thing is not everyone is capable of seeing the big picture or spotting the clues.  So discussing those things might help, but we need to be careful to avoid doing too much research and getting into too many holes.  It takes discipline to avoid the noise, so it can be dangerous and even appear to mislead.  So this doesn't apply to the OP, if someone is worried about getting off track, I would highly suggest they avoid all blogs, it can cause distraction.

[wymustigo]

I think what happens is sometimes people will view a topic and misconstrue it as misleading others into areas of research not required. For example, everyone has different education levels, so what might be inherent knowledge by some may need to be acquired by others.

Take Rolltide's synonym / antonym post. For some people they may have the innate ability to look at two words and intuitively see the relationship between them. Although a thesaurus is not required, it can be of help if someone does not instictively know these relationships. So someone viewing his thread might be triggered by what they see, it will spur their imagination.

Same thing with the WWII post I made. Looking at how we won the war by using interesting tricks to map out the geography to Normandy Beach to great precision will not help with the poem, but it does spur the imagination to look at a map in different ways. Same thing with how the fur traders and mountain men used dead reckoning. Will it help with the poem? No, not directly, but it will help explain how even without a map these people were able to get around. The poem has to lead us to a geographic location, it does so through words, those words may not necessarily correspond in a direct label on the map. When I post things like that, I am trying to spur thoughts in a round about way without giving away a solution. If it looks misleading, that is not my intent.

I do not know why we argue, perhaps it is because my writing skills are bad and my point does not come across properly as a result. We don't know each other in real life, perhaps we never will, but I have a feeling that we would agree on a lot more than what seems aparent on this forum.

[seannm]

May 15, 2017 11:25:52 GMT -5 @wymustigo said:

May 15, 2017 10:47:40 GMT -5 seannm said:

So for me, being a poem purist is having the belief and faith that indeed all the information that I needed to find the treasure was found within the poem, but this information obviously still needed to be decoded, so to speak. So for me, as a poem purist, researching the meaning of words, a good understanding of grammar, and the basic ability to read a map, was of the greatest importance. 

If that is a purist, than I agree with that assessment.  The only thing I would add is TTOTC because that is where the poem was released.  If you can read that book (which obviously includes the poem) and understand what you are reading, no research beyond that is required.  If you do not know things like who John Clarles is, or that Redford was involved in book(s), you will not pick up those specific things which might or might not be hints, but that is NOT going to prevent you from finding the chest.  The hints are NOT required in a solid solution, only the correct interpretation of the clues is required.  A deep understanding of literature and western history is not required to decode the poem, its only use would be to find the hints which might help with the clues, but if you know this stuff already, then you will see it without doing any research.

The thing is not everyone is capable of seeing the big picture or spotting the clues.  So discussing those things might help, but we need to be careful to avoid doing too much research and getting into too many holes.  It takes discipline to avoid the noise, so it can be dangerous and even appear to mislead.  So this doesn't apply to the OP, if someone is worried about getting off track, I would highly suggest they avoid all blogs, it can cause distraction.

wymustigo,

 Then by both of our words I would believe you and I are in agreement, that the bare minimum that one needs to find the treasure is: the poem (both in the book and online), the right map and the average persons understanding/knowledge of word meanings and grammar (we all could argue what Forrest considers the average persons understanding/knowledge). This bare minimum of needed or required items and knowledge is the path that I, as a poem purist, follow, but information on the peripherals/edges of this path can be helpful and or confirming that one is indeed upon the correct one.  And in my opinion if one can just focus their attention on the bare minimums and close out everything else, their path to the treasure may become more direct.

Seannm

[wymustigo]

May 15, 2017 12:27:10 GMT -5 seannm said:

May 15, 2017 11:25:52 GMT -5 @wymustigo said:

If that is a purist, than I agree with that assessment.  The only thing I would add is TTOTC because that is where the poem was released.  If you can read that book (which obviously includes the poem) and understand what you are reading, no research beyond that is required.  If you do not know things like who John Clarles is, or that Redford was involved in book(s), you will not pick up those specific things which might or might not be hints, but that is NOT going to prevent you from finding the chest.  The hints are NOT required in a solid solution, only the correct interpretation of the clues is required.  A deep understanding of literature and western history is not required to decode the poem, its only use would be to find the hints which might help with the clues, but if you know this stuff already, then you will see it without doing any research.

The thing is not everyone is capable of seeing the big picture or spotting the clues.  So discussing those things might help, but we need to be careful to avoid doing too much research and getting into too many holes.  It takes discipline to avoid the noise, so it can be dangerous and even appear to mislead.  So this doesn't apply to the OP, if someone is worried about getting off track, I would highly suggest they avoid all blogs, it can cause distraction.

wymustigo,

 Then by both of our words I would believe you and I are in agreement, that the bare minimum that one needs to find the treasure is: the poem (both in the book and online), the right map and the average persons understanding/knowledge of word meanings and grammar (we all could argue what Forrest considers the average persons understanding/knowledge). This bare minimum of needed or required items and knowledge is the path that I, as a poem purist, follow, but information on the peripherals/edges of this path can be helpful and or confirming that one is indeed upon the correct one.  And in my opinion if one can just focus their attention on the bare minimums and close out everything else, their path to the treasure may become more direct.

Seannm

Yes, I agree, that is the bare minimum and is what people should start with for sure!  They should not get tied up in deep research, start with the bare minimum first.

If while reading the poem you need help with the clues, first try a dictionary or thesaurus to see if synonymous words might give hints.

While using just those two things, try to put the clues to locations on a map or GE. That is all you are required to do.

If that fails, then take the next step which would be the book.  Not every book he mentions, only TTOTC.  But they should keep in mind the book will not lead to the chest, he does not directly name any clues or locations where it is (IMO), he uses small sometimes obscure hints that may or may not be easy to spot, and they will only help with the clue meanings in an indirect way.

The only time you should research anything is if you come across something that you do not understand within those required things and want to read (briefly, just enough to understand what you wanted to know), then go ahead and do it. But be extremely careful to not confuse a basic understanding of a topic with writing a thesis on it, heavy research should really not be required at all and will likely get you in trouble for sure as Seannm is indicating!

[wymustigo]

Note: Many of my posts will go beyond basic research, but that is because I enjoy learning and go overboard sometimes. They seem long winded simply due to my lack of writing skills, all I can do about that is hope I improve over time! So don't hold it against me if a post seems to involve more than is required. I have a hard time writing

I do not wish to mislead, only to spur thought.

[locolobo]

I don't 'like'(I know, who gives a rat's A$$ ) much on the forum's, but everything in this thread is 'likeable' (but, dang it, you guys are giving the newbies a three or four year head start!!).

Nice to see you two finally recognize where the other is coming from!

[wymustigo]

This thread should be read by anyone new to the chase! Should be thumbtacked.

In fact new searchers should not even read the Fenn FAQ at Dals! You want to start with all your focus on the poem, and only move to a dictionary followed by a thesaurus if needed. Ask yourself questions: Why did he use this word here? Why is it punctuated as it is? Why is Brown capitalized? But do not research that at first, try only what you have in your mind. Take small steps and only look things up if you feel the need. Make sure you fully understand the poem and try to narrow down the clues before doing anything, including TTOTC backstory. If you are stumped with the clues, ask yourself why and only use external help of a dictionary if you are confused. If you still can't get anywhere, then branch into TTOTC book slowly reading and looking for things that seem odd, but do not leave the book and poem until you must because you question something FF said.

Basically take it from the basics and only move to the next step if you are stumped on something. But only do so based on your own knowledge or lack thereof, and when you seek information do not take someone else's word as gospel, they may be wrong, use your own mind. But don't dive into complex things unless you enjoy it, and remain careful if/when you do.

Once you come up with a solve, try to run it by a family member or close friend. Let them throw darts at it before you do heavy research. Who knows, two pairs of eyes and two minds might help. When you have the confidence, go for it.

Try to leave scrapbooks, Q&A, interviews, and blogs/forums as a last resort. Need to be careful here though. It is the next logical step, but once your mind is polluted with all this stuff it becomes very hard to unlearn it. I would even break it down further and say to start with the search parameters, then FF interviews, leave the scrapbooks and forums alone to the very end. This can be hard if you like to talk about the chase with others, but keep in mind that although it can help, often it will hinder progress. It should be your last resort! The time to be concerned is when your research goes beyond what is in TTOTC and search parameters. When you find yourself out of the scope of the poem and TTOTC, for example studying something that FF doesn't even mention in the book, you are likely headed down the wrong path.

Damn, I talk too much. Seriously though, Jenny should sticky this thread, it should be REQUIRED READING. It is to the point, eloquent, and non argumentative!

I feel like I should be saying, "Who is buying the next round?"

[seannm]

May 15, 2017 12:57:35 GMT -5 @wymustigo said:

Note: Many of my posts will go beyond basic research, but that is because I enjoy learning and go overboard sometimes. They seem long winded simply due to my lack of writing skills, all I can do about that is hope I improve over time! So don't hold it against me if a post seems to involve more than is required. I have a hard time writing

I do not wish to mislead, only to spur thought.

wymustigo,

 I too enjoy the research into things that I'm not well versed in, and one of those is in the history of places I have discovered along the way.  In this research I know that what I'm learning, while valuable and interesting, most likely will have no impact on my ability to understand or confirm information found within the poem, but none-the-less I thoroughly enjoy it as it appears you do as well.  I believe searchers tend to get overwhelmed by believing that the information that they are researching outside of the poems words will somehow confirm or unlock the mysteries of where warm water halt or other key phrases found in the poem, and this may just be an unwilling attempt to force fit their preconceived ideas upon the words in the poem. Now this I realize may be an unpopular or even incorrect assumption/statement by me, but just consider the following single example.

dalneitzel.com/2017/02/08/forrest-gets-mail-13/

In the poem, Thrill of The Chase when you talk about “Not far, but too far to walk” and “Take it in the canyon down,” is it referring to a waterfall.

You guys seem to be hung up on waterfalls. Don’t try to change my poem to fit your ideas.f

Why is it Forrest believes "you guys" are hung up on waterfalls? Is it because Forrest, ever the consummate salesman, subliminally sold us on that theory by the words in his book, maybe.  And is that not the embodiment of the lesson learned in the "Experienced Skinner" that is it not how special the thing is, only how special one can make you believe it is. And yes, while the waterfall and clearing in Vietnam may have been very special to Forrest, in ways we cannot fully fathom, they may have no bearing on understanding the words in the poem.

So by being a poem purist and focusing on the bare essentials I believe I have now been able to avoid the pitfalls of buyers remorse, so to say.

Seannm

[jl]

Bare minimum would have to include going to get it unless you are a true arm chair searcher and believe all you have to do is tell fenn where it's at and he will announce the chase is over. So bear minimum to know it is solved would be the chest in your possession not trying to argue but everything up to that point is speculation.

[wymustigo]

I agree.

There was one more thing regarding research, at least for me, when I went on site and met the locals it made discussion easier with them. It also puts a heck of a lot of feeling behind standing near places such as Independence Rock, or looking at the crevaces left in the ground at Guernsey WY.

The funny thing is I started at YNP 3 years ago, and this time around I have found so many places I want to see that to me are more interesting. It reminds me of the first time I went to Virgina, Delaware and PA. Walking those streets with an understanding of what you see is an awesome thing. Other than major landmarks and how we settled there, the west to me was a mystery to me. Sure I heard all the famous (and infamous) names, but never really put much thought into it.

One of the sad points was learning the real history of how the natives were treated and how they exist today. They did not teach me in school that for example the Wind River Reservation is considered "Compton of Wyoming." Anyway, I don't want to derail this, its too good, so good I will probably link to it often.

[jl]

And then there is also the possibility at a minimum you would need to be imaginative, creative, etc. so it is very hard to lump the minimum requirements into one box, and if you did then you would not be certain until you had the TC in your possession. Whew, all this speculation has wore me out I need a reservation somewhere.

[whome]

Find the starting point. To date, nobody with any certainty has used the poem to find the starting point.

[heidini]

Forrest said that there can be no certainty without having the chest. (Paraphrasing- not a quote!)

[voxpops]

May 15, 2017 19:37:34 GMT -5 @whome said:

Find the starting point. To date, nobody with any certainty has used the poem to find the starting point.

The poem most assuredly tells one where to start, and points to a physical "asterisk" as confirmation. Funnily enough, I only found the asterisk recently, using the precision tools the poem provides. But you don't need to find the asterisk - the general location is adequately referenced in the poem, and gave me my current start point about 2.5 years ago. It's taken me all that time since then to work my way to the last line. The poem really does contain all the information - you just need to translate it to a map and then to BOTG.