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Post by goldilocks on Jun 2, 2019 8:30:24 GMT -5
Last night I tried to go back to the thought of each clue is a literal description of a location. I decided to google maps the hanging flume: riches old - it was to be used to separate gold from sediment from a mine. Warm waters halt - flumes had a "trap" at the start to hold back the water while they loaded it up, then would release the water (along with the cargo) down the flume. and take it in the canyon down - flumes were usually V shaped, like a canyon and often times (like the hanging flume) built along canyon walls. not far, but too far to walk - the hanging flumes seem to fit 2 different interpretations of this. First, it's 10 miles long which people have speculated due to the TFTW book preface. Also, it matches Fenn's definition of it's meaning of a trip he just can't do (You can't walk the flume). Then there's the home of brown... in that area, everything is brown. Everything looks the same, just brown dotted with green for miles. Nothing spectacular, nothing to match up with anything else. It's like trying to give someone directions in a desert. I run into this a lot and it gets pretty frustrating. The locations if they aren't named on a map, have to be some kind of landmark. I agree about them being some kind of landmark. We wouldn't need exact coordinates to find those, they would be self explanatory. You would only need to pinpoint exact location at last clue or two IMO. Where I get stuck with this theory however is why then, wouldn't one be able to jump in at clue 6 or 7...unless it's a scavenger hunt and each clue is needed to proceed to the next.
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 2, 2019 12:16:08 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of is the first couple clues are either marked on a map or a widely known landmark where one could find it on a map. Whereas the later clues are landmarks only to Fenn and therefore not on a map or have websites about them.
I think what I may start doing is working from the GNIS website with every location named or having a name related to brown in my search state (to start). My reasoning for this is that with brown being capital, it must be a name/proper noun and should therefore be easier to find that the ambiguous warm waters. So my strategy is to go through every brown location 1 at a time, see if I can connect the warm water halt/canyon down clues nearby. If I can't, move on to the next. If I can, then see if I can connect a no place for the meek.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 3, 2019 3:45:19 GMT -5
Koatk: In my opinion, Forrest has constructed this puzzle such that it can't be solved out of sequence. He was quite specific about that when so many people tried to solve for the blaze first. "There are ten billion blazes out there." Nearly the same argument goes for home of Brown: way too many of them, and no way to choose among them (even by making the assumption that Canyon down and WWWH should be reasonably nearby.) The trouble is that most searchers mistakenly think that "Not far, but too far to walk" is simply a vague description of some distance, when instead it is a very precise logic problem that defines a landmark on the map.
Bottom line is that Forrest is being straightforward when he says you have to solve where warm waters halt first. You can make no progress without it. It is not a dart throw; it has a single, precise answer. It cannot be solved (with precision) as a standalone line -- you need one keyword hidden in the structure of the poem.
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 3, 2019 8:06:03 GMT -5
Koatk: In my opinion, Forrest has constructed this puzzle such that it can't be solved out of sequence. He was quite specific about that when so many people tried to solve for the blaze first. "There are ten billion blazes out there." Nearly the same argument goes for home of Brown: way too many of them, and no way to choose among them (even by making the assumption that Canyon down and WWWH should be reasonably nearby.) The trouble is that most searchers mistakenly think that "Not far, but too far to walk" is simply a vague description of some distance, when instead it is a very precise logic problem that defines a landmark on the map. Bottom line is that Forrest is being straightforward when he says you have to solve where warm waters halt first. You can make no progress without it. It is not a dart throw; it has a single, precise answer. It cannot be solved (with precision) as a standalone line -- you need one keyword hidden in the structure of the poem. That makes sense for the later clues, such as the one he specifically mentions - the blaze - because those can only be found with BOTG (I believe those are "Fenn-recognized landmarks". in other words, I believe they are oddities Fenn noticed on his way to the treasure location and therefore won't be on a map or likely found with a google search) The problem with warm waters halt, which I believe to only be the first part of the location's description, is that there are many more places that relate to warm, cold, falls, flumes and many other descriptions that can be connected to WWH than there are places relating to the name Brown. Someone somewhere (I can't remember where) made a very good point that there is no punctuation at all between warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. So I believe they are 1 and the same place. I agree that not far, but too far to walk is not a distance as I have seen many times. At first it was 3 miles or 5 miles. But I never believed it because it's a relative distance description and changes based on the interpreter. Then the book Too far to walk came out and everyone said it must be 10 miles because that's how far down the Madison he traveled. I still don't believe that though because that distance can't be determined with just the poem and a good map. To me, it's a rewriting of the idiom "Close, but no cigar" meaning that the route warm water takes (or carries "it") in the canyon down (whatever that may be) is not a route a person could take. As far as a word that is key, I believe he was talking directly about the first clue, and the first clue only. Most were focusing on warm springs, and a word that is key probably references a different geographical item, such as maybe a mountain, gully, waterfall, lake, etc. By focusing on the warm springs, a correct connection could never be made. Or maybe he was refrencing his clue about needing imagination and that people were reading the clue too literal and not in a colorful, descriptive way.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 3, 2019 9:06:38 GMT -5
> That makes sense for the later clues, such as the one he specifically mentions - the blaze - because those can only be found with BOTG (I believe those are "Fenn-recognized landmarks".
I'm probably in the minority, but I think every clue can be solved from home, home of Brown and the blaze are BOTH named things on a map, and that is why a searcher with the correct solution can go with confidence, knowing precisely what to look for once arriving at the blaze.
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 3, 2019 10:02:54 GMT -5
> That makes sense for the later clues, such as the one he specifically mentions - the blaze - because those can only be found with BOTG (I believe those are "Fenn-recognized landmarks". I'm probably in the minority, but I think every clue can be solved from home, home of Brown and the blaze are BOTH named things on a map, and that is why a searcher with the correct solution can go with confidence, knowing precisely what to look for once arriving at the blaze. You could be correct. One of my favorite interpretations for blaze is the Tecolote Mesa. Not only does Tecolote mean owl (if you've been wise) but the landmark is the red sandstone in the mesa looks like a pair of owl's eyes. And I would say that makes for a pretty good blaze (trail marker) Unfortunately I've not found any other clues from the poem in the area yet. (but I haven't been concentrating my search there) On a side note, my first solve had me extremely excited at first. I took to the premise with the poem being in multiple layers, I used the 4 lines in the 2nd stanza to pinpoint 4 mountains. My thought was that the 4 mountains would be the 4 outer points of an X and where the 2 lines crossed would be where you started the search, beginning with no place for the meek. Wouldn't you know, when I zoomed in on google maps where my 2 lines crossed, there was a pull-off from the road at that exact spot. I threw out that idea when I couldn't connect any further clues from that spot and started finding plenty of other "#mile mountain"s I tried adapting the idea to each of the 4 stanzas between the first and last being the 4 mountains, then starting at WWH from the intersection, but I couldn't get any of my Xs to lead anywhere.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 4, 2019 1:03:28 GMT -5
I had a similar "intersection solve" several years ago: an excellent blaze provided the longitude, and a second landmark (miles away, hinted at by the poem and TTOTC) provided the latitude. When you combined them, the intersection was right on a small island (Captain Kidd?) that required a narrow but fast-moving creek crossing to reach (your effort will be worth the cold).
The tree-covered island was small enough to be thoroughly searched in 45 minutes, but no joy. And I didn't like that I was finding fisherman debris/trash. The surrounding views were beautiful, but the island itself was pretty lousy (not Fenn-y). At least I was able to cross it off the list without a second thought.
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 4, 2019 19:36:36 GMT -5
One thing I wanted to point out, which may not even apply to many. But I've seen a lot of people comment something along the lines of "but waters is plural" or "don't forget, waters is plural"
I'm not saying that doesn't have any meaning, but I think it's unlikely. If you think about it, with the other words Fenn has chosen, it has to be. Otherwise you have: Begin it where warm water halt Well that doesn't sound right, so pluralize halt Begin it where warm water halts
That's much better, but then it rhymes even less with walk, so we should make that plural too. Not far, but to far to walks.
Well, that just sounds silly. So the only real option, it to have water plural.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 5, 2019 11:53:41 GMT -5
Hi kaotkbliss: if my interpretation of the poem is correct, waters plural is intentional and accurate.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 5, 2019 13:36:51 GMT -5
One thing I wanted to point out, which may not even apply to many. But I've seen a lot of people comment something along the lines of "but waters is plural" or "don't forget, waters is plural" I'm not saying that doesn't have any meaning, but I think it's unlikely. If you think about it, with the other words Fenn has chosen, it has to be. Otherwise you have: Begin it where warm water halt Well that doesn't sound right, so pluralize halt Begin it where warm water halts That's much better, but then it rhymes even less with walk, so we should make that plural too. Not far, but to far to walks. Well, that just sounds silly. So the only real option, it to have water plural. In French, the singular and plural forms of the words for "water" - "eau", and "waters" - "eaux" are pronounced identically. From this perspective it doesn't make any difference whether it is "water" or "waters".
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 5, 2019 20:59:55 GMT -5
I just had a crazy thought after reading through pages of Fenn quotes and I read this one again:
Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.f
And with other quotes I read it got me thinking, what if "Begin it where warm waters halt" is being literal, such that you take the word that describes warm waters halt and add "it" at the end to get the name of a location, or divide it up into a new sentence like he mentioned with "A pot he carries" (apothecary)
I had originally tried this method using the "s" from the end of waters, making the word "sit" but hadn't thought of a whole 1 word description such as glacier-it or frozen-it (Those are just the first 2 off the top of my head and haven't actually put thought into a solution yet, just the idea)
basically, Fenn is asked about a specific line and he begins by pretty much telling him he's left off part of the clue. The same thing happened when another person asked about warm waters halt (same basic question, worded slightly different) and was told about baking a cake without all the ingredients... So that's where my train of thought went to get this idea.
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 7, 2019 5:23:37 GMT -5
Well, I've been making use of word game wordfinder sites for words that end with "it" and I've not seen any that could be linked to warm waters halt. Nor did I recognize any as a location name in the rocky mountains.
I'd say that idea is a bust.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 7, 2019 15:34:30 GMT -5
Hi Kaotkbliss: for what it's worth, more than one searcher years back came up with the idea that "Begin it where warm waters halt" was a literal instruction like this: Begin (the word) "it" (with the letter) [where warm waters] halt. "Where warm waters" halts (or ends) with the letter S. So begin IT with the letter S: SIT. Don't know where one goes from there, but at least it's a more puzzle-like idea.
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Post by kaotkbliss on Jun 7, 2019 17:11:31 GMT -5
Yeah, That was one of my first attempts. I read "And take "it" in the canyon down" as trying to either place it into canyon, or adding a letter to sit (which gave me silt) but after that, the puzzle is lost.
This thought was a combination of that and each clue being a description of a place on a map. So perhaps you add the letters i and t after whatever the word(s) is/are for warm waters halt to get a specific location name. But that got me nowhere as well.
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Post by petrified on Jun 7, 2019 23:29:34 GMT -5
I know some people don’t see my logic in this. I’m writing these in the order of the poem and following it precisely. 1st Stanza-the I goes in alone I Second stanza-first line/they halt at the T TIT Second &Third line TITHE Fourth line/n below the TITHEN Third stanza-first line-gives direction of where to play the next clue, FROM THERE, which is where the I went in alone. You are to play the it going the other direction. First line-NO place for the meek ANTI-opposite ANTITHEN Second line-the en.....d is ever drawing nigh *tough clue-multiple hints NAR means nigh Fourth line Heavy loads-AR 15 Water high-Ar-Argon/noble gas NO paddle up your creek-confirming the ANTI
Fourth stanza/We will come back to if u have been y’s You have found the blaze-your feet Look quickly down
Fifth stanza Y is it-that I must go, I have done IT tired and now I am weak AN Y HENAR
Sixth stanza First line-list n-list, to move aside-hear me A Y HEAR Second, Third, fourth lines-geographic confirmations
If u have been wise AU here
It’s a word string with a confirming ending. If you think I deviated from what the poem said to do, then please show me where I did that.
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