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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 14, 2019 23:09:39 GMT -5
"Save your best smile until you raise the lid.f"
"best smile" -> bet s miles -> pari(bet = pari in French) s soldier -> paris soldat -> sold at paris
The illustration of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks could perhaps refer to the word "woodcut".
The Bodleian book-coffer( and other Messenger boxes) has an early woodcut on the underside of the lid.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 0:15:48 GMT -5
"Save your best smile until you raise the lid.f" "best smile" -> bet s miles -> pari(bet = pari in French) s soldier -> paris soldat -> sold at paris The illustration of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks could perhaps refer to the word "woodcut". The Bodleian book-coffer( and other Messenger boxes) has an early woodcut on the underside of the lid. Also in the image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks is a "bird in a nest".
Bird in a nest -> avis in a n est -> navis in a is -> ship in a is -> naus(Gr.) in a is -> vessel(Gr.) in a is -> aggos(Gr.) in a is -> box(Gr.) in a is -> is in a box
Therefore the image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks with a bird in nest may be interpreted as:
"A woodcut is in box"
Also:
"Save your best smile until you raise the lid.f"
Save your -> vase votre(Fr.) -> vas ove ert -> vessel(L.) one(v= n in Gr.) ert -> aggos(Gr.) un ert -> box(Gr.) a ert -> box erat -> box was(L.)
Save your best smile -> Box was sold at Paris
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Post by heidini on Jun 15, 2019 0:24:20 GMT -5
"Save your best smile until you raise the lid.f" "best smile" -> bet s miles -> pari(bet = pari in French) s soldier -> paris soldat -> sold at paris The illustration of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks could perhaps refer to the word "woodcut". The Bodleian book-coffer( and other Messenger boxes) has an early woodcut on the underside of the lid. Also in the image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks is a "bird in a nest".
Bird in a nest -> avis in a n est -> navis in a is -> ship in a is -> naus(Gr.) in a is -> vessel(Gr.) in a is -> aggos(Gr.) in a is -> box(Gr.) in a is -> is in a box
Therefore the image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks with a bird in nest may be interpreted as:
"A woodcut is in box"
Also:
"Save your best smile until you raise the lid.f"
Save your -> vase votre(Fr.) -> vas ove ert -> vessel(L.) one(v= n in Gr.) ert -> aggos(Gr.) un ert -> box(Gr.) a ert -> erat -> box was(L.)
Save your best smile -> Box was sold at Paris
I literally was talking about the word safe earlier today. My husband said the word “pie safe.” Another definition of safe is a chest to hold foods.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 0:37:34 GMT -5
My comments in this thread re. the "box" suggest to me that the box that we are searching for is actually a medieval messenger box, rather than the 19th bronze box shown in the photo. The fact that ff has described the box as being "bronze" may interpreted as a reference to the Latin word "aes" which may be translated as "bronze" and also as "money". Since a medieval messenger box may also have been used to store money, the description of the chest being "bronze" is not inconsistent with the idea that the chest is a medieval messenger box.
In this way the inconsistency between ff's comments about the box being from about 1150AD and the photo of the chest indicating a 19th century box are resolved.
If in fact the chest we are looking for is a medieval messenger box of which there are only said to be about 60 in existence, this totally changes the game for me, and my ideas about the type of place where the box may be hidden.
"nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.’
I suggest that the idea about the chest not being the one shown in the photograph, is the "one important possibility" referred to in ff's statement above.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 0:38:22 GMT -5
It looks like the old "bait and switch" to me.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 2:09:18 GMT -5
"Save your best smile until you raise the lid.f" "best smile" -> bet s miles -> pari(bet = pari in French) s soldier -> paris soldat -> sold at paris The illustration of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks could perhaps refer to the word "woodcut". The Bodleian book-coffer( and other Messenger boxes) has an early woodcut on the underside of the lid. Why has the illustration of the the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks got stars in the sky and a moon?
"Lofty (celsus) is named after sky, because one is elevated and high, as if the term were 'celestial' (caelestis).” [p.215.] "The sky and its name (De caelo et eius nomine). The philosophers have said that the sky (caelum, 'sky, heaven, the heavens') is rounded, spinning, and burning; and the sky is called by its name because it has the figures of the constellations impressed into it, just like an engraved (caelare) vessel. God distinguished the sky with bright lights, and he filled it with the sun and the gleaming orb of the moon, and he adorned it with brilliant constellations composed of glittering stars. In Greek the sky is called ouranos, from orasthai, that is, from 'seeing,' from the fact that the air is clear and very pure for seeing through” [p.100]. "The sky (De caelo): The sky (caelum) is so named because, like an engraved (caelatum) vessel, it has the lights of the stars pressed into it, just like engraved figures; for a vessel which glitters with figures that stand out is called caelatus. ...
"Caelum" is the latin word for both the sky/heaven but it can also be translated as an "engraver's chisel". From the above, the constellations(stars) may thought of as "engravings."
engraving
synonyms: etching, print, impression, block, plate, dry point, cut, woodcut, linocut, vignette
Woodcut is a synonym of engraving. The starry sky and moon in the illustration of the the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks support the idea that the illustration refers to the word "woodcut".
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 2:20:27 GMT -5
engraving
synonyms: etching, print, impression, block, plate, dry point, cut, woodcut, linocut, vignette
It is interesting to note that Dal uses the word "vignette" in relation to ff's stories in the above link.
"Vignette" as can be seen from above, is also a synonym of "woodcut".
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 3:25:27 GMT -5
Coffrets à estampe are small wooden boxes, usually of beech, covered with leather and laced with strips of iron, whose inner lid is decorated with a hand-colored woodcut.1 [In English these are sometimes called “messenger boxes” or “missal boxes,”]
Given their structural fragility the coffrets à estampe must not have been intended to travel long distances; they could not have been used, for example, for direct transport of goods on a pilgrimage nor to serve as boxes for professional messengers plying the roads. They could, of course, be transported (as the side fasteners and little leather-covered straw cushions that are still present on some boxes show), but certainly not for a long trip, unless enclosed in a larger container. Of the various hypotheses about their function, the idea that they were book boxes seems the most likely since they constitute one of the rare instances of a medieval furnishing that is longer than it is wide. The ratio of dimensions of the interior of the body (length greater by one third than the width) corresponds to the book proportions.
The print affixed to the inside is also critical to their role, and the fact that nearly 90 percent of the glued-in prints carry religious iconography and are accompanied by lines from the liturgy (with a strong axis devoted to the Passion of Christ among the works attributed to the Parisian workshop of Jean d’Ypres) invites one to see this as a medium of devotion. The shallowness of the hidden compartment in the boxes with flat lids, their semi-fixed locking system and the desire for this compartment to pass unnoticed, suggest it might have served as a location for a relic or something similar (a piece of linen that had been in contact with a holy body, a medallion, or an authentique).4 In brief, coffrets à estampe could be book boxes, not just for missals as has been suggested,5 but for related books of devotion. These would have been consecrated by the presence of a relic, and the print would operate as an image of meditation. The use of the conditional is in order, because we currently have no iconographic source or contemporary writing that can shed light on these objects. These conclusions arise strictly from the examination of the paired object-print.
The photo of ff's bronze box is said to be 10"x10"x5". This shape represents a square box. This shape does not conform with the shape of a book which as the above article points out is longer than it is wide.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 3:34:14 GMT -5
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 4:25:07 GMT -5
My comments in this thread re. the "box" suggest to me that the box that we are searching for is actually a medieval messenger box, rather than the 19th bronze box shown in the photo. The fact that ff has described the box as being "bronze" may interpreted as a reference to the Latin word "aes" which may be translated as "bronze" and also as "money". Since a medieval messenger box may also have been used to store money, the description of the chest being "bronze" is not inconsistent with the idea that the chest is a medieval messenger box.
"If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals. I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles, or pinyon nuts, sagebrush—and I know the treasure chest is wet.”Forrest Fenn
wet-> notis(Gr.)-> not si -> not sea -> not aes -> not bronze
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 15, 2019 11:35:08 GMT -5
Forrest had asked me to find him an antique “book of hours” box in Spain that he could use to bury it in, but I was unable to find one in time and he ended up using one that he found somewhere else. I remember holding one of the gold nuggets that he placed in the box and it was larger than a turkey egg. It is interesting that Ric describes the box that ff asked him to find was an antique "book of hours" box.
He does not say that ff wants him to find an antique bronze box, or a box with specific design on the outside, or a box of certain dimensions.This suggests that these elements of the box are not clues.
If what Ric has reported is correct ( I see no reason why it should not be) it seems that the box that ff wanted, specifically had to be an antique "book of hours" box for some reason. This suggests to me that it is a clue. To my very limited knowledge about such things, a 'coffret a estampe" is the only type of box that meets this criteria.
The major problem that I have with the idea that the box being a medieval coffret a estampe with a pasted woodcut , is that ff has said that the box dates to about 1150AD. This was prior to the time when woodcut prints first appeared in Germany in the 14thC. A box made in 1150AD would not have a printed woodcut pasted into it, unless the image was placed there at a later date.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 16, 2019 2:32:08 GMT -5
The major problem that I have with the idea that the box being a medieval coffret a estampe with a pasted woodcut , is that ff has said that the box dates to about 1150AD. This was prior to the time when woodcut prints first appeared in Germany in the 14thC. A box made in 1150AD would not have a printed woodcut pasted into it, unless the image was placed there at a later date.
1150 is an anagram of 1501 which is within the range of dates given for the woodcuts in the few existing coffret a estampes.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 16, 2019 22:59:24 GMT -5
Forrest doesn't know when his bronze box was created. It almost certainly wasn't 12th century; 19th is more believable. It definitely wasn't for a Book of Days; that is strongly refuted by even a generous interpretation of the evidence. But none of this matters a wit as far as finding where he hid it. Forrest says he paid $25k for it and that he overpaid, so draw your own conclusions from that.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 17, 2019 2:30:17 GMT -5
It is interesting that the word "Indulgence" may be easily equated with the word "Messenger" via two foreign words.
A woodcut might also be thought of as a blaze, since a blaze is often a mark cut into a tree i.e. a woodcut.
The image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks is an image that in style, is reminisent of the type of image produced by a woodcut.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 17, 2019 3:17:01 GMT -5
Forrest doesn't know when his bronze box was created. It almost certainly wasn't 12th century; 19th is more believable. It definitely wasn't for a Book of Days; that is strongly refuted by even a generous interpretation of the evidence. But none of this matters a wit as far as finding where he hid it. Forrest says he paid $25k for it and that he overpaid, so draw your own conclusions from that.
artinprint.org/article/when-assemblage-makes-sense-an-example-of-a/
"Coffrets à estampe are small wooden boxes, usually of beech, covered with leather and laced with strips of iron, whose inner lid is decorated with a hand-colored woodcut.1 [In English these are sometimes called “messenger boxes” or “missal boxes,”]
Given their structural fragility..."
The question of whether the box we are searching for is the bronze box depicted in the photo or a medieval "coffret a estampe" is relevant to the question of where the box might be hidden.
The above quote from the link, states that these medieval "coffret a estampes" are stucturally fragile and are made of wood covered with leather and strips of iron with a hand colored woodcut inside. Although a bronze box of the type in ff's photo might be able to withstand being esposed to the elements for an extended period of time, a structurally fragile wood and leather box from 500+ years ago certainly would not.
The value of such a "coffret a estampe" depends mainly on the woodcut inside the box. Exposure of such a box to the elements for any length of time would seriously compromise the condition of the woodcut inside the box and so greatly diminish the value of the box.
If the box that is being sought is a medieval " coffret a estampe" it seems that the hiding place would have to be a place where the condition of the box and woodcut would be preserved. This requirement introduces a further valuable clue to the hiding place.
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