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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 17, 2019 6:24:08 GMT -5
The image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks is an image that in style, is reminisent of the type of image produced by a woodcut.
The image of the man with an axe and the chopped down tree trunks appears in the context of the story about ff's father. The image appears to have no direct link to the text within which it is placed.
However, in the story ff says - 'I discovered that he's buried alongside my mother in row 4 of block 23 at the Hillcrest Cemetary".
This quote implicitly refers to "a grave".
A grave -> Ur grave -> Gravure -> Gravure (sur bois) -> Woodcut
If the point of the story is to understand that it refers to "a grave" and hence "woodcut", this would provide the link between the image and the story.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 17, 2019 6:51:02 GMT -5
Forrest doesn't know when his bronze box was created. It almost certainly wasn't 12th century; 19th is more believable. It definitely wasn't for a Book of Days; that is strongly refuted by even a generous interpretation of the evidence. But none of this matters a wit as far as finding where he hid it. Forrest says he paid $25k for it and that he overpaid, so draw your own conclusions from that. Zaph,
A quick google search reveals that the estimated value of some "coffrets a estampes" that have come up at auction, starts at about $20,000. From this I would conclude that the idea that the box could be a "coffret a estampe" is consistent with ff's statement that he paid $25,000 for the box and felt he overpaid.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 17, 2019 8:36:30 GMT -5
A grave -> Ur grave -> Gravure -> Gravure (sur bois) -> Woodcut
If the point of the story is to understand that it refers to "a grave" and hence "woodcut", this would provide the link between the image and the story.
In the sentence following the mention of where his father is buried, there is mention of "a French soldier's headstone" - another implicit reference to "a grave" .
This suggests use of the French language, and hence the word "gravure".
Then in the following paragraph there is an implied reference(innuendo?) to yet another "grave" - that of ff himself , via the reference to his epitaph.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 17, 2019 15:11:41 GMT -5
Bownarrow: all this speculation about an alternative box seems to stem from only three pieces of evidence: the existence of the DIA chest/casket (and its estimated 19th century vintage), the extreme similarity between that casket and the bronze chest pictured on the back cover of TTOTC, within the book, and on Forrest's website, and a $25k price tag that seems too high -- ~assuming~ Forrest's chest is a kissing cousin of the DIA chest. There is no evidence that the chest Forrest hid in the Rockies differs from the one in his book. What would be Forrest's motivation for making a switch -- particular to a box that is far less able to withstand the elements? And why show us an early arrangement of the treasure within the chest in Scrapbook 158? dalneitzel.com/2016/09/23/scrapbook-one-hundred-fifty-eight/
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 4:03:32 GMT -5
Bownarrow: all this speculation about an alternative box seems to stem from only three pieces of evidence: the existence of the DIA chest/casket (and its estimated 19th century vintage), the extreme similarity between that casket and the bronze chest pictured on the back cover of TTOTC, within the book, and on Forrest's website, and a $25k price tag that seems too high -- ~assuming~ Forrest's chest is a kissing cousin of the DIA chest. There is no evidence that the chest Forrest hid in the Rockies differs from the one in his book. What would be Forrest's motivation for making a switch -- particular to a box that is far less able to withstand the elements? And why show us an early arrangement of the treasure within the chest in Scrapbook 158? dalneitzel.com/2016/09/23/scrapbook-one-hundred-fifty-eight/Zaph, The statement that box is medieval has never sat well with me. It is just a gut feeling based mainly on the state of preservation of the bronze and wood evident in the photo.The similarity of the box to the one in the DIA, which is stated as being probably from the 19thC, led me to further question why ff would state his box was medieval.
It would be easy to conclude that these inconsistencies about the box might be due to ff lying, being forgetful, or simply ignorant, but I think it is more likely that they are intentional and a clue in some respect.
Ric's statement that ff asked him to find him "an antique “book of hours” box in Spain " suggested that out of the information available about the box, it is the statement about it being antique and used to hold a "book of days/book of hours" that is likely to be what is important about the chest.
archive.org/details/jstor-497460/page/n9 The design on the box is similar to the one depicted on the casket in the article by Richard Loomis ( see p263 in above link). The original casket with this design is made of wood.(see plate 156 and note, in Hefner-Alteneck, Trachten und Geratschafte III)
The article by Richard Loomis depicts other caskets with similar designs. One such casket with a similar design is the ivory casket in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York (acc. no. 17.190.173a)
One of the panels on this casket ( and other similar ivory caskets) depicts an image showing the hunting of the unicorn. This is interesting since the woodcuts found in the medieval coffrets a estampes are said to come from the workshop of the Master of Very Small Hours of Anne of Brittany . The connection is that this workshop was responsible for the cartoons of The Lady and the Unicorn , from which the tapestries of the same name now in the Cluny Museum in Paris, were made.These tapestries were woven in Flanders.
In the interview with Lorene Mills, ff on 11/03/12, (18.39) ff refers to the chest as Flemish.
In TTOTC is a reference to Flanders Field, a poem about the First World War. The name of the Master of Very Small Hours of Anne of Brittany is said to be Jean d'Ypres.
Ypres (/ˈiːprə/ EE-prə; French: [ipʁ]; Dutch: Ieper [ˈipər]) is a Belgian municipality in the province of West Flanders. Though the Dutch Ieper is the official name, the city's French name Ypres is most commonly used in English.
Ypres, the town in Flanders, was the location of a battle in the first World War. According to Wikipedia(see above link), Ieper is the Dutch official name of the town.
Another name that ff gave to his box was "Tarzan" which means "white skin". "White skin" is associated with the disease leprosy and a leper. "l" may be interpreted as both a "L" and a "I", so the town of Ieper/Ypres may be interpreted as Leper. In this way the box is associated with the town of "leper/ Ypres" in France, and thus with Jean d'Ypres, the Master of Very Small Hours of Anne of Brittany. This again suggests that ff's box is a coffret a estampe.
With respect to why ff would make the switch, I can only offer the analogy with a magic trick that uses "smoke and mirrors" to suggest that object an is something other than it appears to be - hence the references to mirrors.
The fragility of a coffret a estampe suggests to me that ff's box is unlikely to be in a location where it is exposed to the elements.
From the information that I have posted, the idea that the box we are searching for is a coffret a estampe seems to me a good possibility and one worth pursuing.
I hope this helps.
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Post by heidini on Jun 18, 2019 4:55:22 GMT -5
Flanders chased down in etymology is blaze.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 5:02:11 GMT -5
The two names that ff has given to his box - "Indulgence" and "Tarzan" may be equated with "messenger" and "Ypres" as already shown.
When taken together these two words yield "Ypres Messenger" which may be interpreted as referring to a messenger box(coffre a estampe) with a woodcut by Jean d'Ypres.
The word messenger might also be a reference to Iris, the messenger of the gods. Iris was a personification of the rainbow. "The end of the rainbow" might refer then to "the end of the box".
"The end of the box" might refer to the image of the lady and the unicorn depicted on the end panel of the ivory casket in the New York casket or one of the other similar caskets. This in turn might refer to the tapestries of the Lady and Unicorn at the Cluny Museum in Paris.
"The end of the rainbow" also may be interpreted as "The den of the rainbow" or "The hiding place of the box"[den = latibulum =hiding place(L.)] . If "the end of the rainbow" may be equated with both the Cluny Museum and "the hiding place of the box" could the Cluny Museum in Paris have something to so with the hiding place of the box or be the hiding place of the box?
The Cluny Museum has an ivory casket with similar designs to that of the box shown in ff's photo.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 5:10:46 GMT -5
Flanders chased down in etymology is blaze. Thanks Heidini.
Flanders seems also to be related to the word "flamenco" - Andalusian gypsy dancing
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 5:21:18 GMT -5
The Cluny Museum has an ivory casket with similar designs to that of the box shown in ff's photo.
The Cluny Museum also has a coffret a estampe( see above link)
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 5:40:24 GMT -5
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 5:48:02 GMT -5
The Cluny Museum also has a coffret a estampe( see above link)
Bow(G.) = Bios = Bois = Wood(F.)
Arrow = Chets(H.) = Chest
Bownarrow = Wood chest
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 7:14:11 GMT -5
The Cluny Museum also has a coffret a estampe( see above link)
Bow(G.) = Bios = Bois = Wood(F.)
Arrow = Chets(H.) = Chest
Bownarrow = Wood chest Wood = silva(L.) = forest
Bownarrow = Forrest's chest(and = 19 = s)
The "bow and arrow" depicted in the San Sebastian woodcut in the Cluny coffret a estampe could be taken to support the idea that Forrest's chest is wood and a coffret e estampe.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 7:14:44 GMT -5
I do not think that the Saint Sebastian coffret a estampe in the Cluny Museum is Forrest's box for numerous reasons, but I do think that it supports the idea that Forrest's box is made of wood and is a coffret a estampe.
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Post by zaphod73491 on Jun 18, 2019 12:23:39 GMT -5
Bownarrow: coincidentally, my wife and I were just in Ypres a few weeks ago. Every night at 8 pm they have a WWI commemorative parade with a marching band of pipes and drums through the center of town, stopping at the giant Menin Gate stone archway that bears the names of nearly 55,000 dead.
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Post by Bownarrow on Jun 18, 2019 12:46:02 GMT -5
Bownarrow: coincidentally, my wife and I were just in Ypres a few weeks ago. Every night at 8 pm they have a WWI commemorative parade with a marching band of pipes and drums through the center of town, stopping at the giant Menin Gate stone archway that bears the names of nearly 55,000 dead. Z,
I thought about you and your trip around Northern France and Paris when I was thinking about Ric's comment about the Books of Hours. Did you get a chance to go to the Cluny Museum when you were in Paris?
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