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Post by efanton on Sept 29, 2019 21:50:56 GMT -5
I think that using the phrasing "number" is a rough one, because in hexadecimal, for example, the number 10 is a. Digit limits the characters to 0123456789. I definitely would rather know how many characters are in the key than what those characters are, so if we're worried about limiting it too much, then I would prefer the question "Is the first key 10 characters in length?" Not quite as much info as the digit phrasing, but at least it will limit the length. Because Lukas is tricky, I worry a little bit about asking if it's a 10 digit number, as well. For example, if it is a phone number, I could imagine him saying "no, it's not a ten digit number [it's 10 digits that are in a row, not a single number, haha!]" I mean, you wouldn't say the phone number 3132667748 "three billion, one hundred thirty-two million, six hundred sixty-seven thousand, seven hundred forty-eight" ....he might decide then to say it isn't a ten digit number. :/ And there is the problem. Lukas is very tricky, and his insistence of a YES NO question doesn't help. He knows what we are fishing for, after all he reads the forum and is a pretty intelligent person, but rather than give a nudge in the right direction he will be deliberately evasive instead, sticking to a simple yes/no. That is his right as the author of the hunt and he sets the rules, We just have to play within those rules in the smartest way possible. Asking a yes/no question would be fine if we had a question every week, half a dozen questions in a few months would allow us to really nail down what we are looking for. But we have a question a month, the same process and questions might see us in the same position as we are now in a years time. The problem with using the word 'characters' instead of the word 'digits', is what do we actually achieve? If he answers YES we get a length for the key, but we dont know if its made up of words, numbers or both. We get nothing but the keys length, and if he answers no its not 10 characters in length we get absolutely nothing. If we ask does the first key consist of a 10 digit number an he answers yes, we know the length of the first key, a rough format for the answer the three stanzas (they are either numbers, or can combine to form a number, for example 'how many countries' are three words but lead to a number), and can eliminate any word or alphanumeric answer. If he answers NO to this, then we know its either not ten characters in length or could involve letters and/or numbers. A subsequent question to eliminate characters or letters, would tell us that is numbers only or that the length is not 10 digits long. The problem here is that to truly get what we need two questions are required, but we are only allowed to ask one. So we are reduced to asking the question that reinforces or dismisses our best theories so far. Personally I think we are still better off asking Is the first key a 10 digit number?
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Post by catherwood on Sept 29, 2019 22:31:50 GMT -5
don't use the word 'number' at all. Maybe don't even use '10' without spelling it out. "Is the key a string of ten digits?" (or numerals, which by definition are single digits, right?) Or is the word 'string' going to cause additional ambiguity? How about: "Is the key a sequence of ten Arabic numerals?"
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Post by keladry12 on Sept 30, 2019 9:58:16 GMT -5
As you can tell from reading my responses, I would much rather "is the first key a string of ten digits" than characters, but people were having a problem with that. I still don't know why you want to keep "ten digit NUMBER" because I think that will let Lukas be tricky, but if you want him to be able to answer no but still have us need to find a set of ten digits, be my guest.  |
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Post by efanton on Sept 30, 2019 14:50:10 GMT -5
As you can tell from reading my responses, I would much rather "is the first key a string of ten digits" than characters, but people were having a problem with that. I still don't know why you want to keep "ten digit NUMBER" because I think that will let Lukas be tricky, but if you want him to be able to answer no but still have us need to find a set of ten digits, be my guest. because you suggested "Is the first key 10 characters in length?" Characters are NOT numbers, nor limited to any form of number. Character include letters and symbols. That's the problem I would have. If you are going to be pedantic over the difference between decimal/integer/hexadecimel/BaseX forms of a number then lets simply put the question in a defined form Is the first key a ten digit number? Where the numbers are integers and in base 10 format.
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Post by keladry12 on Sept 30, 2019 15:07:06 GMT -5
I also really love the idea of actually confirming that the first key is 10 numbers. And not use anything about phone numbers this time! "Is the first key a string of 10 digits?" quick and easy. That was actually my first post about it, so....? |
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Post by keladry12 on Sept 30, 2019 15:13:27 GMT -5
Is the first key a ten digit number? Where the numbers are integers and in base 10 format.
So....digit means the 10 (di-) symbols that are used in base 10. That is, 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. You don't need to define that. However, I wouldn't call a phone number, for example, a 10 digit number. You would never read the phone number (552) 435-3241 as five billion, five hundred twenty - four million, three hundred fifty - three thousand, two hundred forty-one. It is a string of ten digits, though. That's the problem I have with your question. |
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Post by efanton on Sept 30, 2019 15:39:13 GMT -5
Is the first key a ten digit number? Where the numbers are integers and in base 10 format.
So....digit means the 10 (di-) symbols that are used in base 10. That is, 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. You don't need to define that. However, I wouldn't call a phone number, for example, a 10 digit number. You would never read the phone number (552) 435-3241 as five billion, five hundred twenty - four million, three hundred fifty - three thousand, two hundred forty-one. It is a string of ten digits, though. That's the problem I have with your question. 08711268710 describe that. Would you say that a ten digit number or a telephone number? Maybe its BOTH. The point i'm making is you dont get to say no its not a 10 digit number because it is also a telephone number. Think of any number, that happen to have ten digits. We are asking the description of the number, not its meaning. That ten digit number could be a grid reference, an ISBN number, an account number. We are NOT asking what the number is or its relevance. We are asking whether the description we give 'a ten digit number' describes the first key. If the description matches the first key then no matter what the relevance of that number is Lukas MUST answer YES no matter how pedantic he may wish to be. It only becomes a telephone number singular if we actually mention the term telephone number. |
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Post by treasurer on Sept 30, 2019 17:35:06 GMT -5
(Sorry folks, this is a long one) 
What my question would be and why: Go back to March/April and get into Lukas' head while he's crafting the riddle. Within the riddle, he has chosen to a. define the parameters/details of how this hunt works
b. address the needed clues for two keys
c. address the issue of where the two keys are applied (the chest)
d. address any of the other details we have yet to encounter
It's these four things that will be contained in the riddle. Keeping that in mind along with his responses during the "Six questions" interview, my take is:
Stanza 1 & Stanza 10
Two keys unlock the chest of gold
That’s made of ones and zeroes
And the one that holds them both
Will be the thousand dollar hero
In stanzas 1 & 10, I believe Lukas is simply defining parameters for the hunt. a. It is an online/internet treasure hunt with no need to engage in a physical pursuit somewhere out in the world. He directly/publicly addressed this in his interview.
b. It consists of one online chest
c. It consists of two online keys
Stanza 2 -Describes the first of the two KEYS (#1)
Stanza 3 -Describes KEY #1 Stanza 4 -Describes KEY #1 Stanza 5 -Describes KEY #1
Stanza 6 -Describes the other of the two KEYS (#2)
OBSERVATION: None of the remaining 3 stanzas are directly labeled as being part of a KEY, so what is their purpose?
Stanza 7
Then with your newfound knowledge
You must travel through black flame
The place where alchemy’s best is found
Will help you win this game
Stanza 7 has to be
a. another part of KEY #2 or
b. the location of the chest whereas the two keys are applied or
c. a part of some yet unknown process after the two keys have opened the chest
Stanza 8
You need not rise up from your chair
To find what treasure’s hidden there
For each of you is equal
And the competition fair
Stanza 8 is either
a. a clue of some kind with no stated reference towards either of the KEYS or
b. the location of the chest or
c. What I believe is simply a stanza defining another parameter... that this is a true armchair hunt, crafted with no special advantage to anyone,
intended to be solved by anyone with basic internet skills. Lukas directly articulated this point in his interview.
Stanza 9
The best of luck to all who try
For here the hunt begins
Let greed not come between you
Real treasure lies in friends
Stanza 9 is either
a. another clue of some kind, with no stated reference towards either of the KEYS or
b. the location of the chest or
c. What I believe is simply another stanza defining another parameter... That Lukas feels this hunt would more than likely take a group effort at finding the solve. He's publicly articulated this point as well.
So in my world,
I feel (at least at this point) that I (mostly) understand every stanza except #7.
Stanzas 1,8,9,10 would have all been ideas in Lukas' mind that he would have crafted into the riddle if he wanted to include parameters for the reader/hunter. He's publicly mirrored these ideas when speaking about the hunt and how it works. I know this assumes a lot, but I just don't get a vibe that these verses are intended for anything other than defining parameters for treasure hunters. Stanzas 2,3,4,5,6 are obvious clues to finding the two KEYS. And speaking of KEYS, I am watching everyone (including myself) keep rehashing clues that could very well be the right solve if we understood the CHEST mechanism. Where is the chest (or the location of the treasure)? This could be naive on my part, but I'm not looking for more clues to solve KEYS. I'm not coming up with anything new because I've not had any confirmed "NO" experiences with my valid keys. I've found places where the treasure is not, but does that mean my keys are wrong, or is it that I'm applying them in the wrong place? That's the question of this hunt for me. I think I have good solves. If I had confidence in the treasure's location then I can accept good YES or NO feedback by trying them out in the lock to the chest.
So I'm just gonna throw this one out there. This hunt is full of committed, brilliant, creative, and think outside-of-the-box people and I'm looking forward to any responses even if you throw a hammer at me. All's I know is that in the way I think, I need a chest.
Lukas, in regards to your comment about "x marks the spot" for the location of the treasure, can I find that location, on purpose and not by accident, to any degree, partially or fully, if I do not know the correct solve for stanza #7?
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Post by efanton on Sept 30, 2019 19:09:40 GMT -5
Thats a very good analysis of this hunt so far. I agree with 99% of it.
As for the X marks the spot, I still believe I nailed that one, because some feel that it doesnt match their own expectations or theories is no reason to dismiss it. If its on the web, then in my opinion its fair game for Lukas to use it as part of his puzzle.
To be perfectly honest I have thought what I would do if I won the chance to ask the question.
My first instinct would be to validate or dismiss the location I found in google maps marked with an 'X'. That would help me as an individual to expand a few ideas or theories I have yet to share. I havent shared them yet, not because I want to withhold something from others for personal advantage, but because I have yet to put meat on my arguments for those three ideas or theories. To be honest knowing the format of the first key would help reinforce or dismiss one of them
I also recognise that this hunt has to be based to a large degree on cooperation and teamwork. With that in mind I recognise that a question must be asked that helps as many people as possible to progress. To me this can only be one of two options. What is the format of the first key ala 'does the first key consist of a ten digit number' or some clarification of what is meant by 'black flame'. I see no possible way to clarify the 'black flame' issue at the moment with a simple YES/NO question without probably wasting a question to Lukas and what could be a very valuable hint. This is why I currently support the question does the first key consist of a ten digit number and will ask that if I win the option to ask a question
The problem with that question is, that is exactly what I did. No one has given an alternative solution in my opinion that solidly matches every single line of the stanza. I did not find the location on Naxos by mistake. I followed the clues and with time and effort found it. My interpretation of the clues might be different to the majority here on the forum, but thats ok, we each have our own ideas.
I have, I believe made a very logical argument for that location I posted and broken it down step by step for everyone to read. Could it be a different location he was referring to in stanza 4? of course it could be, but that is down to whether our interpretation is correct or not, and matches what Lukas thinks.
The obvious answer from Lukas to your above question to lukas would be a YES. He has included it in his hunt and obviously felt he has given sufficient clues for us to find it. Our interpretation of his clues might not be the same as his and therein lies the problem and it is up to us to figure it out. If he answered Yes to that question though does it help at all? I cant see a YES helping at all unless you gave him a specific location in your question
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Post by keladry12 on Sept 30, 2019 19:41:14 GMT -5
08711268710 describe that. Would you say that a ten digit number or a telephone number? Maybe its BOTH. As that string has eleven digits, I'm not quite positive what you were trying to prove, but yes, you are correct, there. You could certainly say it is a ten digit number. You couldn't say it was an eleven digit number, though, even though there are 11 digits there, as it begins with a leading zero. It would be correct to call it a string of 11 digits, though, because that doesn't say we have to follow conventional NUMBER rules, just that we have to use digits, and there has to be ten of them. Don't worry, I'm a mathematician. I actually know what I'm talking about there. If you do a little research I'm sure you can learn about digits and numbers as well, you seem pretty smart and capable. |
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Post by keladry12 on Sept 30, 2019 19:49:52 GMT -5
So in my world,
I feel (at least at this point) that I (mostly) understand every stanza except #7.
Hm. See, and I feel I understand (mostly) everything except stanza 4. I'm pretty positive that I need to find three digits from that single stanza, but I'm just lost. I have something I would try in a heartbeat if I could just figure out those three digits......Anyone want to jump back to that topic? Bueller? |
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Post by treasurer on Sept 30, 2019 20:01:10 GMT -5
This is why I currently support the question does the first key consist of a ten digit number and will ask that if I win the option to ask a question The problem with that question is, that is exactly what I did. No one has given an alternative solution in my opinion that solidly matches every single line of the stanza. I did not find the location on Naxos by mistake. I followed the clues and with time and effort found it. My interpretation of the clues might be different to the majority here on the forum, but thats ok, we each have our own ideas. I have, I believe made a very logical argument for that location I posted and broken it down step by step for everyone to read. Could it be a different location he was referring to in stanza 4? of course it could be, but that is down to whether our interpretation is correct or not, and matches what Lukas thinks. The obvious answer from Lukas to your above question to lukas would be a YES. He has included it in his hunt and obviously felt he has given sufficient clues for us to find it. Our interpretation of his clues might not be the same as his and therein lies the problem and it is up to us to figure it out. If he answered Yes to that question though does it help at all? I cant see a YES helping at all unless you gave him a specific location in your question Thank you efanton. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for cause you got me thinking in a way you probably didn't see coming! So let me suggest/change from the above, to this:
Lukas, in regards to your comment about "x marks the spot" for the location of the treasure, my question is can I find that location, on purpose and not by accident, to any degree, partially or fully, if I do not know the correct solve for stanza #7; to the point that I have an internet location or address or webpage that provides me with access whereas I can input my solve(s) for either one or both keys designed to unlock the chest of gold, and thereby receive a direct correct or incorrect reaction in response to the information I submitted as defined by your definition of key#1 and/or key#2 so as to initiate on my part a correct interpretation as a YES or NO answer for my submitted input, thereby responding in me progressing forward towards the intended solution or conversely giving me obstacles and causing me to step back because of incorrect submission(s) and having to rethink and search again to find the correct keys?
Yeww... gotta come up for air after that one 
(If you were to somehow get that one Lukas and surprisingly manage to answer it then you truly are a good sport who's really out to have some fun... hats off to you)!
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Post by efanton on Sept 30, 2019 21:30:11 GMT -5
This is why I currently support the question does the first key consist of a ten digit number and will ask that if I win the option to ask a question The problem with that question is, that is exactly what I did. No one has given an alternative solution in my opinion that solidly matches every single line of the stanza. I did not find the location on Naxos by mistake. I followed the clues and with time and effort found it. My interpretation of the clues might be different to the majority here on the forum, but thats ok, we each have our own ideas. I have, I believe made a very logical argument for that location I posted and broken it down step by step for everyone to read. Could it be a different location he was referring to in stanza 4? of course it could be, but that is down to whether our interpretation is correct or not, and matches what Lukas thinks. The obvious answer from Lukas to your above question to lukas would be a YES. He has included it in his hunt and obviously felt he has given sufficient clues for us to find it. Our interpretation of his clues might not be the same as his and therein lies the problem and it is up to us to figure it out. If he answered Yes to that question though does it help at all? I cant see a YES helping at all unless you gave him a specific location in your question Thank you efanton. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for cause you got me thinking in a way you probably didn't see coming! So let me suggest/change from the above, to this:
Lukas, in regards to your comment about "x marks the spot" for the location of the treasure, my question is can I find that location, on purpose and not by accident, to any degree, partially or fully, if I do not know the correct solve for stanza #7; to the point that I can input my solve(s) for either one or both keys designed to unlock the chest of gold, and thereby receive a direct "correct or incorrect" reaction in response to the information I submitted as defined by key#1 and key#2 so as to initiate on my part a correct interpretation as a YES or NO answer responding in me progressing forward into the intended solution or stepping back because of incorrect submission(s) and having to rethink and search again to find the correct keys?
Yeww... gotta come up for air after that one
(If you were to somehow get that one Lukas and surprisingly manage to answer it then you truly are a good sport who's really out to have some fun... hats off to you)!
The problem with that, apart from the appalling grammar. is in effect you are asking TWO questions at once. Can you find the location X marks the spot without having an answer for stanza 7? I'm pretty certain you could could you input your solves for both keys without solving stanza 7? Assuming stanza 7 gives us a webpage where we enter both keys, then definitely not. the problem with the question as you have worded it is the first half might yield a YES, but the second half yield a no, or vice versa. Even if Lucas accepted such a question, and I doubt he would because essentially it is two questions, if he answered NO you would not know whether the first part was a YES or a NO, and vice versa. Are you suggesting there might be some way to confirm whether you have the correct answers for the two keys before you actually enter them? Please, if you do get the opportunity to ask a question, do not submit that. Reword it at least so that it does make sense. |
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Post by efanton on Sept 30, 2019 21:35:43 GMT -5
So in my world,
I feel (at least at this point) that I (mostly) understand every stanza except #7.
Hm. See, and I feel I understand (mostly) everything except stanza 4. I'm pretty positive that I need to find three digits from that single stanza, but I'm just lost. I have something I would try in a heartbeat if I could just figure out those three digits......Anyone want to jump back to that topic? Bueller? I have had a solution to the first two keys for some weeks now, including your 3 digits for stanza 4. I have been sharing almost all my work So why arent you sharing or hinting at your solve for the location where we enter the keys. |
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Post by keladry12 on Sept 30, 2019 22:08:49 GMT -5
People have already talked about it. I haven't brought anything new to the table, really. Maybe I'm just wrong. I didn't realize that other people had two keys they were sure on, because I haven't seen anyone argue through key two AT ALL and it seemed that everyone was stuck on stanza 4 (I'm not sure how you got numbers from your Naxos Island, I'd love to see that).
I think that the only logical thing for the keys to be is a login and password. Lukas also said the location was in the puzzle, and that the LOCATION was marked by an x. I think that Stanza nine is more important than many of our compatriots give it credit for, and, after much head banging, am almost certain that you need both stanza six and stanza seven to have your second key.
Maybe I missed some things on the forum, or is there somewhere else that people are discussing things too?
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