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Post by efanton on Aug 18, 2019 19:10:36 GMT -5
I am impressed with your efforts on this and I think it is interesting to follow your searches! I am not sure I am following the idea that the keyword might be shifted so I created a little test for myself. Assume we have this plain text: YOUSOLVEDTHEPUZZLE And we know the key: FLOWER If we encrypt this as a columnar (vertical) transposition cipher we get the following cipher text: OHLYVPOEUUDZLEESTZ Now, if we use a brute force solver (e.g. dSolve) for this cipher it finds the correct solution (solution #2 in the list) right away without us even providing the key. Let us now take the last three letters and put them in front (as in keyword not starting at the beginning). We then get the following cipher: STZOHLYVPOEUUDZLEE. It again finds the solution easily (solution #3 in the list). Granted, this cipher uses a keyword with 6 letters which is not very long (6!=720). Thus, I don't think this is the way to make it harder. If anything, I think a long keyword is used and perhaps in combination with some exotic obfuscation. But who knows.... Sorry I went of on a bit of a tangent there. What I was trying to say was the order of the letters in the keyword could have an effect of the decryption. Simply applying the keyword without manipulating the cipher-text first would just give you garbage. one of the possible solutions that I have read about for keyword ciphers is that you take the length of the keyword. For argument sake 7. You now break the encrypted text into 7 chunks. you assign a letter of the keyword to each chunk, lets assume the keyword is CASTLED you then sort the chunks according to their keyword letter, so the 2nd chunk would be first (because its an A), the 1st chunk would come next (C), the last chunk would be next (D) etc etc The keyword not only allows you to decipher the encrypted text but it also determines how you rearrange that text before decoding. If your keyword is long then there's more chunks that are jumbled, making a simple brute force attack less likely to succeed. Another variant of this is instead of decrypting with a cipher-alphabet at the end, you simply rotate each chunk using number value of its keyword letter. (A would mean shift each letter in that chunk one letter(a B becomes a C) , D would mean shift each letter in that chunk four letters (a B would become a F)
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Post by susb8383 on Aug 18, 2019 21:12:14 GMT -5
I have another hypothesis to throw out.
"I have taken extra measures to make sure that the riddle must be solved in order to decrypt the message" could just mean that he used a keyword that isn't found in a dictionary.
For example, something like "blueboulder" is made up of two real words, blue and boulder, but you won't find it in a dictionary. And if you solved the first part of the riddle and got 'blue', you wouldn't automatically think of 'boulder' as going with it. You would have to solve the entire riddle to get that phrase.
I've started thinking of the lines of the riddle more as crossword puzzle clues.
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Post by efanton on Aug 19, 2019 17:05:06 GMT -5
I have another hypothesis to throw out. "I have taken extra measures to make sure that the riddle must be solved in order to decrypt the message" could just mean that he used a keyword that isn't found in a dictionary. For example, something like "blueboulder" is made up of two real words, blue and boulder, but you won't find it in a dictionary. And if you solved the first part of the riddle and got 'blue', you wouldn't automatically think of 'boulder' as going with it. You would have to solve the entire riddle to get that phrase. I've started thinking of the lines of the riddle more as crossword puzzle clues. I agree, I was thinking in similar vein as well. The way to kill a brute force dictionary attack is simply to use a keyword that will not be in the dictionary or a hackers keyword list. But I was thinking more on the lines of a word used by Shakespeare (old English) if indeed we can tie every line in the riddle to him, or an obscure name from a movie or a piece of literature, or a persons full name such as NORMANGRAHAMHILLOBE. (obviously dropping duplicate letters) My favourite at the moment for the keyword is TRIPLECROWN simply because it has no duplicate letters(essential for a cipher keyword) and is about the right length
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Mini Hunt
Aug 19, 2019 17:13:03 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by inatimate1 on Aug 19, 2019 17:13:03 GMT -5
My thought is that it could be double encrypted.
So putting the string through with the first key phrase, and then running the resulting string through another key phrase. Brute force won't solve it because it would only handle the first string of letters
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Post by mrpoirot on Aug 19, 2019 20:16:00 GMT -5
My thought is that it could be double encrypted. So putting the string through with the first key phrase, and then running the resulting string through another key phrase. Brute force won't solve it because it would only handle the first string of letters Double transposition cipher is a possibility for sure. However, there are brute force methods for these as well. For example, here is one by the famous Boxen creator Johan Åhlén: www.boxentriq.com/code-breaking/double-transposition-cipherNow, the easiest way to make it hard for brute force solvers, without adding an extra dimension of obfuscation, is to use a very long keyword. The number of combinations (keywords are just number combinations) increase as x! and that is fast. 6! is 720 but 12! is 480 million... The idea of using a non-dictionary word is a good idea. That would make it harder to solve without a key for sure. But not impossible...It would be funny if someone cracked this by means of brute force.
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Post by susb8383 on Aug 19, 2019 22:38:47 GMT -5
My thought is that it could be double encrypted. So putting the string through with the first key phrase, and then running the resulting string through another key phrase. Brute force won't solve it because it would only handle the first string of letters I thought that at first too. But his comment was "I have taken extra measures to make sure that the riddle must be solved in order to decrypt the message."
I'm not sure how double encryption would be a guarantee that someone solved the riddle.
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Mini Hunt
Aug 20, 2019 5:35:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by inatimate1 on Aug 20, 2019 5:35:21 GMT -5
I didn't realise that a transposition cipher could be solved by brute force if it was put through the process twice, but it doesn't surprise me that someone has invented a way to cover the bases.
Time's running out and I'm completely stumped on how to make heads or tails of this one!
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Post by susb8383 on Aug 20, 2019 22:58:19 GMT -5
Time never runs out. If nobody solves it by Sept 1, he increases the winnings to $100. He wont release mini 2 until this one is solved.
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Post by susb8383 on Aug 21, 2019 18:18:37 GMT -5
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Post by efanton on Aug 21, 2019 18:50:08 GMT -5
I think I'll stick to learning to program in Visual Basic, Far simpler But back on topic, how is that going to tie in with the rest of the verse though? Lukas has said to get the keyword you must solve ALL of the lines in the verse. It would have to be a really obscure keyword to be able to tie the word crochet in with anything else.
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Post by susb8383 on Aug 21, 2019 20:20:18 GMT -5
Not necessarily 'crochet.' I read in a crochet abbreviation list that the single stitch is represented as sc in patterns. So it could be that each line of the riddle yields a few letters which spell out a word when put together.
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Post by efanton on Aug 21, 2019 20:59:26 GMT -5
Not necessarily 'crochet.' I read in a crochet abbreviation list that the single stitch is represented as sc in patterns. So it could be that each line of the riddle yields a few letters which spell out a word when put together. that begins to make sense. Personally I think there will be some sort of overall 'theme' that each clue in the four lines are related to , that together lead to a keyword. The only theme I have come to so far is racing, and as described in l one of previous posts, the 4 lines in the verse could lead to 'Triple Crown' or Graham Hill who won all three races. The first line including 'Hathaway' lends itself to the theme 'Shakespeare' but I cant get answers for all four lines to match this. The Kentucky Derby as suggested by another forum member makes sense until you tries to tie in answers for all four lines that lead to a common keyword. The name of a horse for example. I'm not convinced its right but I certainly haven't ruled it out, it sort of fits, but not quite. At least I hope that is what Lukas intends. if each line has a clue that is from random topics or themes, then this problem becomes infinitely more difficult, but random topics for each line as you are suggesting might indeed be the answer
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Post by susb8383 on Aug 21, 2019 21:55:45 GMT -5
I thought of a theme at first too, but I just can't tie Hathaway to any of the remaining lines, and I can't get anything but Hathaway from the first line. So now I'm back to thinking they are just isolated lines.
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Mini Hunt
Aug 22, 2019 0:54:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by goldenchild on Aug 22, 2019 0:54:55 GMT -5
The theme I keep going back to is a knot. First of all, the only readable word in the string of text is “lasso”. Then “round twice and thru” sounds like directions for a knot. “From gate to steed”..a knot can be used to fasten a gate or a horse. But what kind of knot fits every single line? How about a HITCH! “ we hath a ways to go”....one definition of hitch is a long stretch of time like military service...or prison time. twice round and thru fits like I stated above. Gates have hitches, you “hitch” a horse to a fence etc. And getting “hitched” is a stately deed that comes with a state license! BOOM. Messing with online decoders frustrates me and I don’t have much patience for it. If someone wants to take this info and give them a shot go for it! I feel like this could be the correct solution however.
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Post by efanton on Aug 22, 2019 5:06:17 GMT -5
The theme I keep going back to is a knot. First of all, the only readable word in the string of text is “lasso”. Then “round twice and thru” sounds like directions for a knot. “From gate to steed”..a knot can be used to fasten a gate or a horse. But what kind of knot fits every single line? How about a HITCH! “ we hath a ways to go”....one definition of hitch is a long stretch of time like military service...or prison time. twice round and thru fits like I stated above. Gates have hitches, you “hitch” a horse to a fence etc. And getting “hitched” is a stately deed that comes with a state license! BOOM. Messing with online decoders frustrates me and I don’t have much patience for it. If someone wants to take this info and give them a shot go for it! I feel like this could be the correct solution however. You might be on to something there. I love how you are getting knots out of each line, especially the the 'stately deed'
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