First Few Clues

[earthshaker42]

As chased around here, I don't think anyone has defined what a clue is, or how they might change based on what you know (or think you know) or where you are. I think the same is true for the nouns.

It is fun to see how the definitions change.

[seannm]

Apr 17, 2020 20:14:25 GMT -5 zaphod73491 said:

SeanNM and anyone: when Forrest says the clues are consecutive -- even chronological and sequential -- what do you take that to mean? Of course they are, by definition, when we either follow them in our mind or execute them with BOTG. So it seems to me that the ~sensible~ interpretation is that the clues are consecutive/chronological/sequential in the order they appear in the poem. Is it the only interpretation? No. But the other interpretation is a bit of a "well duh, I didn't need to be told that."

Zap,

Well Forrest said, in the Lure documentary interview, "I don't know that anybody has told me the clues in the right order". Now doesn't that just stick out like a sore thumb?

Why hasn't anyone told him the right order? I mean, if he has told us several times that they are in consecutive order or that the first clue is ....? That is unless there is an order that is different then how we view them in the poem. Could the consecutive order be different than the chronological order? Could the deciphered order be different the the observed obvious order?  I believe there is.  Consecutive is simply defined as one after another in a sequential order, while chronological order is more defined by a record of events starting with the earliest and following in the order they occur, or simply by time. And isn't there parts of them poem that allude to timing?

So again, I believe there is a difference in the order of the clues as we view and or read them in the poem versus how they are then followed in the physical world once correctly deciphered. 

I mean if we are to believe, as most want us to, that the clues are consecutive order in the poem, and that the first clue is "begin it where warm waters halt" and the last clue is "Look quickly down your quest to cease", there sure is a lot of words left over that then are discounted. 

Seannm

[seannm]

All,

Here is a copy of an email I sent Forrest on January 9th, 2017. Now mind you this was before the re-emergence of the New Zealand audio where Forrest says the first clue is "Begin it where warm waters halt" that Locolobo pointed out sometime in June of 2017.  

=======================================================================

Do we follow?
Sean Dodson
Mon 1/9/2017 12:49 PM
Forrest,


I have always attempted to remain a participant and not a spectator in the Chase. I had considered posting this, but felt it may be too much to divulge. I'll let you be the judge, and to respond in your own way.

--------------------------------------------------------------

All,



Do we all follow what followed precisely means? Forrest has said before that the clues in the poem are in consecutive order. So it is logical to assume that the nine clues may just be the nine sentences found within the poem. Now this is not a new theory as many share it, and while it does seems very logical, I believe most get turned around because they believe that they (the clues) must be precisely followed in the order that they appear in the poem. And that the first clue, quite possibly the where, must be located within stanza one since it is the first complete sentence in the poem. Now what if followed doesn't mean to be followed in the literal sense, but more in a figurative sense as in "understood", otherwise, one must precisely understand the meaning of the clues and when they do, those answers, that he already knows, will lead one precisely to the end of his rainbow and the treasure.



“The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean.”f



I have firmly believed that the clues are just clues, and they are easily identified (9 clues = 9 sentences), but it is their deciphered (read/understood/followed/figured out) answers that must be followed (literally) to the end of his rainbow and the treasure. Think about it this way, the first clue (the where) may not be the first sentence in the poem, but when one successfully deciphers all the clues in the poem, the where, and each consecutive answer may then be more easily identified and followed by placing one foot down in front of the other.



Look at the “big picture” and stop thinking so linearly.



"All the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem"f



Do you all follow me, you just may.



Seannm

--------------------------------------------------------------

Forrest, I don't have the chest yet, but I now know I don't need to see it with my own eyes to know it is out there just waiting for one to find it. Again thank you the thrill, and understanding that my purpose in life now is to pass this thrill on to my children. I am thankful that I have been given a second chance to do so.


Seannm

================================================

So back in 2017, even though I believed that the nine sentences could be the nine clues, I still theorized that it was still possible that the first clue we needed to figure out wasn't necessarily the first sentence in the poem, because the order of the clues as we see them could be different then the deciphered order we follow in the physical world.  

Seannm

[zaphod73491]

Hi Sean: while there are loopholes in almost everything that Forrest says or writes, I try to take a holistic approach (combined with Occam's Razor) and come up with the simplest explanation that is most consistent with the entire canon of Forrest's ATF statements.

One thing he has repeatedly emphasized has been the lack of deception, subterfuge or red herrings -- at least deliberately provided. (We all recognize that searchers are quite adept at fooling themselves.)

So I really do think "Begin it where warm waters halt" is the first chronological clue out of the 9, and not just the "first" clue that must be solved. I think the least-conflicting interpretation is that it is first in every sense of the word: first to solve, first in the contiguous sequence of clues, first clue in the poem in a normal left-to-right, top-down reading of the poem, AND "first" in terms of most important.

But I do want to address your mention of his verbal reply about no one having given him all the clues in the right order. Does that statement lose truthfulness if you eliminate the last four words? If no one has given him all the clues, then is it not equally true that no one has given him all the clues ... in the right order? That seems like a good Fennish way of muddying the waters with his answer. And I think it's important to emphasize this was a verbal, in-person, off-the-cuff answer.

[earthshaker42]

Apr 17, 2020 21:12:43 GMT -5 seannm said:

Look at the “big picture” and stop thinking so linearly.

I think this is a great quote.  It is the first time I have heard it.  I have heard parts, but not together.   Did he actually put the quotes around big picture?

Thanks!

[goldilocks]

Regardless of where one stands on the 9 sentence 9 clue theory, I think it is an important conversation. I think it is important because it begs the question, what exactly is the order we must put things in-contiguous, continuous, consecutive, chronological? I continue to keep an open mind. Trying to disprove a theory can be just as helpful as trying to prove one however, at some point a person has to start eliminating the least likely possibilities. We have no solid confirmation of what constitutes a clue and what doesn't. We can all pick and choose quotes to support our individual theories but how far does that get us? Is Sean any closer with his 9 sentence 9 clue theory than Zap with his BIWWWH and follow clues consecutively theory? No one can say. I've said this before but is the fact that there are 9 clues really that important or is that just getting some hung up and stuck in the mud?

[harrytruman]

Apr 17, 2020 19:22:38 GMT -5 seannm said:

Again clues can be consecutive and or contiguous as we read them and view them in the poem, but the order to those clues once deciphered may not be the same. So I think many are thinking too linearly, but Forrest, ever the consummate salesman, sold us all that skinning knife. 

Seannm

Sean, you make a lot of good points here (in your full response). I don't think I can respond to all of them adequately, but to summarize, I'd say that I think Forrest has indicated many times and in many ways that not every sentence in the poem contains a clue. This means that some sentences contain more than one clue. It also suggests, to me, that a sentence such as "The answers I already know, I've done it tired, and now I'm weak" is not a clue that we need to marry to a specific location on a map. Yes, he's said many times that we shouldn't ignore any of the nouns, he crafted every sentence, he felt like an architect, etc., but he also told early searchers that some elements of the poem were simply "cannon fodder" -- they advance the story of the poem, so to speak, but they're not clues, nor do they help you with the clues.

Anyway, one can believe that not every sentence contains one (and only one) clue and also still believe that one of the sentences that does contain a clue is the first sentence. I just don't believe that, either, and I'm happy to agree to disagree. Honestly, I think it's fascinating that, ten years into this, most searchers disagree on many more things than they agree on.

But the one important thing I do agree with you on is that we can't know, definitely, what Forrest has intended with any of his statements related to the treasure, the clues, the process for interpreting the clues, etc. And we won't know until someone finds the treasure and hopefully has the opportunity and inclination to ask him.

[theoretical]

For what it’s worth, below are my current first three clues, as they work well with my current solve. But I certainly keep an open mind and have explored other clue options. For example, I have questioned if the first clue “in the poem” is actually the first clue on the ground. I don’t believe that now, so I’ve moved away from that thinking and am back to a more straightforward approach.

1) begin it where warm waters halt
2) take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk
3) Put in below the home of Brown

But in my solve, you actually pass HOB before you come to NFBTFTW.

[harrytruman]

Apr 17, 2020 19:32:20 GMT -5 seannm said:

Page 26 TTOTC: "What we've learned is that you should always tell the truth, but you should not always tell ALL of the truth"  These words and advice from Marvin to Forrest were important enough that Forrest recalled them and put them in his book. So Forrest saying he was not lying is truthful for he may never lie, and him saying that he didn't recall a reporter asking him such a question was more than likely truthful as well, but in no way should this be taken as factual evidence that he in fact said that there are in fact three or four clues in the second stanza.  That is a huge stretch in my interpretation, for Forrest has nver definitively stated that there are in fact three of four clues in stanza two.  Why do I feel like I'm talking in circles. 

Hmm, Forrest has never "definitively stated that there are in fact three or four clues in stanza two," therefore that is "a huge stretch"?

Has Forrest ever definitively stated that there is one clue in the first sentence/stanza? Has he ever definitively stated that each of the nine sentences in the poem contains one and only one of the nine clues? Personally, I don't think he has, but I'd be happy to consider any relevant statements I might have missed (if you're inclined to share them).

Until then, I'll continue to think that he's come much closer to saying that he was not lying when he stated that "there are three or four clues in the second stanza."

(And, if anything, his willingness to "tell the truth . . . [but not] ALL of the truth," would suggest that there might be more than three or four clues in the second stanza, not fewer.)

[harrytruman]

Apr 17, 2020 20:14:25 GMT -5 zaphod73491 said:

SeanNM and anyone: when Forrest says the clues are consecutive -- even chronological and sequential -- what do you take that to mean? Of course they are, by definition, when we either follow them in our mind or execute them with BOTG. So it seems to me that the ~sensible~ interpretation is that the clues are consecutive/chronological/sequential in the order they appear in the poem. Is it the only interpretation? No. But the other interpretation is a bit of a "well duh, I didn't need to be told that."

This is a good question, and though I might be oversimplifying, I tend to adhere to this advice:

“Look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.”

Now, I think Forrest misspoke a bit. Maps in and of themselves don't offer "directions." But I take this advice to mean that we're supposed to treat the poem like a set of directions that could be traced on a map, and when I and everyone I know (and including the technicians who created Google maps, etc.) offer directions from one physical location to another physical location, we offer (and expect to receive) those directions sequentially, in the chronological order in which we should follow them, with important turning points, waypoints, etc., along the way.

Personally, I would never tell someone (nor expect to be told): here is the third segment of your journey, now here is the first segment of your journey, and now here is the second segment, and now here is the fourth segment, and so on.

And if this is how Forrest designed this treasure hunt, well, I'll be as surprised as anyone if/when the treasure is ever found.

[zaphod73491]

With 362880 ways to order 9 directions, I agree that giving those directions in a random order would be a recipe for getting lost.

[dejoka]

I merely see shadows where y'all have found the true clues.

What does the casted shadow over the river in TFTW mean?

[brianu]

The shadow over the water, I believe is because of the sun's direction. Also because one of the way to the treasure is by waders and water. Don't forget the walking stick in the shadow......some water is low but has some weight behind it and it's nice to have a stick for support, especially when out running the bears!

[dejoka]

Apr 18, 2020 20:15:07 GMT -5 brianu said:

The shadow over the water, I believe is because of the sun's direction. Also because one of the way to the treasure is by waders and water. Don't forget the walking stick in the shadow......some water is low but has some weight behind it and it's nice to have a stick for support, especially when out running the bears!

Remember, no one has found the treasure yet and so much deeper and imaginative thinking is required.

[seannm]

Apr 18, 2020 14:26:44 GMT -5 harrytruman said:

Apr 17, 2020 19:22:38 GMT -5 seannm said:

Again clues can be consecutive and or contiguous as we read them and view them in the poem, but the order to those clues once deciphered may not be the same. So I think many are thinking too linearly, but Forrest, ever the consummate salesman, sold us all that skinning knife. 

Seannm

Sean, you make a lot of good points here (in your full response). I don't think I can respond to all of them adequately, but to summarize, I'd say that I think Forrest has indicated many times and in many ways that not every sentence in the poem contains a clue. This means that some sentences contain more than one clue. It also suggests, to me, that a sentence such as "The answers I already know, I've done it tired, and now I'm weak" is not a clue that we need to marry to a specific location on a map. Yes, he's said many times that we shouldn't ignore any of the nouns, he crafted every sentence, he felt like an architect, etc., but he also told early searchers that some elements of the poem were simply "cannon fodder" -- they advance the story of the poem, so to speak, but they're not clues, nor do they help you with the clues.

Anyway, one can believe that not every sentence contains one (and only one) clue and also still believe that one of the sentences that does contain a clue is the first sentence. I just don't believe that, either, and I'm happy to agree to disagree. Honestly, I think it's fascinating that, ten years into this, most searchers disagree on many more things than they agree on.

But the one important thing I do agree with you on is that we can't know, definitely, what Forrest has intended with any of his statements related to the treasure, the clues, the process for interpreting the clues, etc. And we won't know until someone finds the treasure and hopefully has the opportunity and inclination to ask him.

Harry:

You said: 

I'd say that I think Forrest has indicated many times and in many ways that not every sentence in the poem contains a clue.

That is you opinion that you think he has indicated, many times, and in many ways that not every sentence in the poem contains a clue.  Well I have never heard him say that directly or definitively, so it may just your interpretation of several different mentions.  And yes (sighs), he has said that we cannot ignore any of the nouns in that poem, that there is one word that will help you more than some of the others, but you got to have them all,   And why would he tell say in an interview that "it's not just a sentence, its a craft". These mentions from Forrest sees to indicate, at least in my interpretation, that we may need the entire poem and not just some part we feel are important. 

This means that some sentences contain more than one clue.

Your making an absolute statement from an opinion or interpretation. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just disagree with your interpretation. 


It also suggests, to me, that a sentence such as "The answers I already know, I've done it tired, and now I'm weak" is not a clue that we need to marry to a specific location on a map.

I think we have read some of his words and taken them to literally, I too have done this. But his statement from the 2017 six questions:  I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. One may interpret this to mean that each clue is a geographic location that can be pinpointed on a map, while another may interpret it to mean that the clues (plural) in the poem are referring to a single geographical place (singular) on a map.  Therefore those that think each clue is a separate geographic location will then believe as you do that the line "The answers I already know...." is not something that can be married to a map, thus it isn't a clue.  Again it is just a difference of interpretation of Forrest's words, and whose interpretation is the correct one? 


but he also told early searchers that some elements of the poem were simply "cannon fodder"

LOL, you'll have to source this statement, for I don't believe he has never made such a statement or anything near what it implies. However, he has said : "There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them." That is far from saying some elements of the poem were simply  "cannon fodder", if that is what you are referring to I think that again is a huge stretch, in my opinion. 

But the one important thing I do agree with you on is that we can't know, definitely, what Forrest has intended with any of his statements related to the treasure, the clues, the process for interpreting the clues, etc. And we won't know until someone finds the treasure and hopefully has the opportunity and inclination to ask him.

Harry, I agree, we can't know definitely what Forrest has intended with all of this statements, some we can like: the treasure is located above 5000ft and below 10,200 or the treasure is located in one of the four search states.  Those are definitive statements from him, but most , as we all know, can be interpreted in many different ways, and this is precisely why we have no consensus within the community on anything, especially what the nine clues are, and why I have said many times that there are no positive confirmations in this hunt, although others obviously disagree, which proves my point. 

So I too enjoy the back and forth discussion, as it's good to see how others interpret things. 

Seanm