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Post by goldilocks on Dec 17, 2020 12:50:52 GMT -5
. It’s a kind of plot twist at the end, if that’s even the right words to describe it. Forest says the poem led the finder to the precise spot but the finder pretty much clues us in that it was the trial and error you’re talking about. I believe a general solve should get one within 1/4 mile to half a mile of the treasure, depending on how far one goes in the first part of the solution. If the complete solution is known, I think it should get a person within 10 or 20 feet pretty easily I wonder how many people, perhaps even including the finder, are trying to still complete the solve
Hi astree and Zaphod, my thoughts exactly upon skimming his Medium posts, YouTube video, the Outside article, and his email Q&A on Dal's site. I'm arriving to the discussion a little late, as per usual.
I'm happy for Jack. I'm saddened that he felt trapped in his previous situation and that he really needed this outlet and outcome, emotionally and monetarily. It was a big gamble.
I don't think Jack addressed this question: how "good" was this thing that Fenn created? (Judging from Jack's YouTube video, I'd probably be amiss to call it a puzzle...so I'll just call it a thing.) I recognize the definition of "good" is open to debate and ultimately not something that will be universally agreed upon. But regardless of our desires, expectations, or proclivities, we can generally recognize some part of elegance when we encounter it. Would Jack call it elegant? Beyond having found the chest (hello money to escape medical school debt!) and even beyond simply having found where the chest was hidden (hello self-esteem!), would he call Fenn's thing worthwhile? Did it have the right stuff?
It seems very odd to me that something elegant would take nearly a month's worth of days of searching. It sounds like there was an element of brute force in Jack's discovery. I wonder if this time intensive step was an intentional design element on Fenn's part? Some of Fenn's statements seem to imply that it wouldn't be necessary. In hindsight, I wonder if Jack thinks a month's worth of days in the area was really required.
I come away with an impression of sloppiness on Fenn's part. 25+ days required in the general area? The blaze was damaged? The golden frog wasn't in the chest? But scissors were? In general sloppiness is antithetical to elegance. Was this a sloppy creation?
I can imagine alternate meanings to Jack's few words on the matter, but it sounds most like he somehow figured out the general location of where Fenn had planned on killing himself and then went about applying the poem to this location, with obvious difficulty. Is there a good reason to think otherwise? If this was Jack's method, was this method intentional on Fenn's part? Is this how he intended us to proceed? If not, and instead Jack intuited the general location by other means (I'm not implying nefarious means, simply things that Fenn didn't intentionally want to reveal), in hindsight does Jack think he would have ever found the chest without intuiting/knowing/guessing the general location?
Hi Jeff, Good to hear from you again. I miss reading the insightful posts from you, Zap, Astree, DaveBakedPotato and others here. What do you make of this line from Jack? “I don’t want to ruin this treasure hunt by saying it was made for an English major, but it’s based on a close read of a text." So is he saying we didn't dissect the actual poem enough? He says the Scrapbooks weren't helpful yet he studied every word from Forrest in an attempt to get to know the man. I was not an English major but maybe you have some insights? |
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Dec 17, 2020 12:59:49 GMT -5
Hi Zaphod, skimmed some more of the Q&A at Dal's site and the Six Questions that Jenny just posted.
I still don't think Jack's addressed if the TTOTC game was conceptually elegant.
But I do see that he's addressed his method a bit more. It sounds like he came to find the general location with the poem and that there were two specific non-TTOTC comments that were disproportionately helpful supporting evidence. My previous query has been answered (i.e. was it largely non-TTOTC information that led him to a general location and then TTOTC applied at the general location that led him to the chest).
While it needs a closer reading on my part (and honestly I'm only half-heartedly into this at this point), Jack seems to be saying that the poem is a more or less superficial description of the general location as experienced by Fenn. It doesn't sound like there is much in the way of riddle (or at all). Jack also seems to emphasize the emotional aspect of this description--what Fenn felt as much as saw in this general location. Presumably this refers to the how he felt about this special place and especially that he was going to end his life there. Jack gives an example of this emotional aspect in the Six Questions: his "complicated emotional connections to places, as we saw in “My War for Me” with his association between the Vietnam waterfall and Philadelphia from his cockpit." This would introduce quite a bit of subjectivity to the poem's directions, increasing the difficulty. Jack stresses that he really needed to get into Fenn's head in order to see the poem's directions from Fenn's subjective emotional perspective.
Another of my questions seems to have been answered: what was the 25+ days of searching the area all about? It sounds like Fenn's poem largely got Jack to the general vicinity but the blaze was the major hold-up, presumably due to the damage that he describes. It seems like there was indeed precision to the directions and simply an unfortunate complication.
One thing I cannot shake is the sadness that Jack felt like he had to pour himself into Fenn's game in order to escape his current situation. I'm sure there is a lot more nuance to the situation and I certainly don't know him. I'm concerned that he seemed to hide his obsession with Fenn's game from his friends and family. Perhaps medical school wasn't a healthy situation for Jack but it doesn't sound like his response to it was healthy either. He sounds like a very intelligent guy. If any of this speculation is correct, I hope he and his loved ones have learned something from what in the end turned out to be fortunate but too easily could have turned out otherwise.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Dec 17, 2020 13:38:04 GMT -5
Hi Goldilocks, I too was not an English major. My college studies were liberal arts but my focus there and thereafter was analytical science. (Shrug.)
My understanding of his comment: TTOTC is not a puzzle in the sense of something very rigorous such as some of the little games in Jenny's Armchair Treasure Hunts book or the recently released solution to Fandango. There isn't a systematic method. My understanding is that it really comes down to the correct interpretive understanding of the emotional context of his poem. It truly is simply poetry--not a puzzle (in the code sense) in the form of a poem. His advice seems to be to get to know Fenn's psychology through his words in order to correctly make sense of his poem (i.e. the close reading).
In summary: Pay attention to Fenn's inner life; don't chase the factual details of his life.
What do you think?
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Post by goldilocks on Dec 17, 2020 16:54:19 GMT -5
Hi Goldilocks, I too was not an English major. My college studies were liberal arts but my focus there and thereafter was analytical science. (Shrug.)
My understanding of his comment: TTOTC is not a puzzle in the sense of something very rigorous such as some of the little games in Jenny's Armchair Treasure Hunts book or the recently released solution to Fandango. There isn't a systematic method. My understanding is that it really comes down to the correct interpretive understanding of the emotional context of his poem. It truly is simply poetry--not a puzzle (in the code sense) in the form of a poem. His advice seems to be to get to know Fenn's psychology through his words in order to correctly make sense of his poem (i.e. the close reading).
In summary: Pay attention to Fenn's inner life; don't chase the factual details of his life.
What do you think?
Yes that's what it sounds like to me but that seems like a deeply insightful method considering this was supposed to be a poem for kids and adults alike to be able to solve. I also think of things like how halt and walk don't rhyme and how Forrest said he was limited by his ability. Concepts like this tell me there was more to solving the poem than just studying Forrest's emotions. |
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Dec 17, 2020 18:08:03 GMT -5
Hi Goldilocks, I agree with your sentiments.
My working assumption was that the chest location could be solved from the poem's outward facing directions but that it was very unlikely to be solved that way alone. There is a literal geographic or objective thing that is "warm waters;" however, as we have seen with all the imaginative thoughts that everyone has shared over the years, this is incredibly unhelpful. I asked myself, what does "warm waters" mean to Fenn as explained in TTOTC? I came up with the idea of remembrance through memorials, to which he relates water/tears prominently in My War for Me. But I was up against a problem of how to translate this to real world specificity and direction, not to mention the elusiveness of many parts of the poem in relation to the book. Sure the Skippy forward chapters have a thoroughly uncanny resonance with the third stanza, but where in TTOTC is the home of Brown?
As I've outlined elsewhere, my working hypothesis (with more textual evidence than contradiction, in my opinion) was that there was "information waiting to be discovered" that would lend much needed specificity to the outward facing directions in the poem. This, I assumed, would help narrow the imaginative possibilities and make the previously very unlikely outcome at least probable if not assured. An easy example of "information waiting to be discovered" not necessarily relevant to TTOTC would be an acrostic. I don't have an example of something relevant to TTOTC, because I don't have one and I don't have the chest. Conjecture.
Could Jack have completed the very improbable but technically possible first step without completing the second? I don't think there is anything excluding that possibility in what I've read so far. Jack technically would have identified all the directions in the poem, as both he and Fenn have stated. But...it doesn't preclude the possibility that Jack, by sheer luck, greatness, or a combination of the two, simply didn't need the second step I outlined above. I concede, as I always have, that it's only an idea and, at this point, one that is more likely wrong. |
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ladyv
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Post by ladyv on Dec 18, 2020 0:48:15 GMT -5
Having just read the 6 questions (thank you, Jenny), I just feel sad and sort of let down.
So very many brilliant people searched for the chest. Poured over everything Fenn ever said, what he'd written in the 00's and before, looked at the difference between those tales and the ones he published in TTOTC, spoke to him, met him, loved him, were part of his life, read every book he ever mentioned and watched every video, too... I know a psychologist from the best psychology graduate school in the world (no kidding) who did all that, wrote a psychobiography of Fenn, and couldn't "nail down" the "region" with confidence.
Basically, I, too, am still unsettled. There is something major missing in this story, and it's not Major Fenn. Ha!
'The poem will lead you to the treasure,' he said, over and over. 'Go back to the poem.' He didn't say, figure out the place I want to die, and that will tell you where to go.
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Post by davebakedpotato on Dec 18, 2020 1:17:24 GMT -5
Having just read the 6 questions (thank you, Jenny), I just feel sad and sort of let down. So very many brilliant people searched for the chest. Poured over everything Fenn ever said, what he'd written in the 00's and before, looked at the difference between those tales and the ones he published in TTOTC, spoke to him, met him, loved him, were part of his life, read every book he ever mentioned and watched every video, too... I know a psychologist from the best psychology graduate school in the world (no kidding) who did all that, wrote a psychobiography of Fenn, and couldn't "nail down" the "region" with confidence. Basically, I, too, am still unsettled. There is something major missing in this story, and it's not Major Fenn. Ha! 'The poem will lead you to the treasure,' he said, over and over. 'Go back to the poem.' He didn't say, figure out the place I want to die, and that will tell you where to go. Jack has emphasised part of his thought process involved deep analysis of where Forrest would want to end his days. That option was open to all of us. The memoir covers death, dying and burial. It is clear from his answers that he also figured out the vast majority of the puzzle and Forrests intentions of it, even Forrest alluded to this (I take 'following the clues' to mean 'deciphered them'). |
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Post by zaphod73491 on Dec 18, 2020 4:39:38 GMT -5
Having just read the 6 questions (thank you, Jenny), I just feel sad and sort of let down. So very many brilliant people searched for the chest. Poured over everything Fenn ever said, what he'd written in the 00's and before, looked at the difference between those tales and the ones he published in TTOTC, spoke to him, met him, loved him, were part of his life, read every book he ever mentioned and watched every video, too... I know a psychologist from the best psychology graduate school in the world (no kidding) who did all that, wrote a psychobiography of Fenn, and couldn't "nail down" the "region" with confidence. Basically, I, too, am still unsettled. There is something major missing in this story, and it's not Major Fenn. Ha! 'The poem will lead you to the treasure,' he said, over and over. 'Go back to the poem.' He didn't say, figure out the place I want to die, and that will tell you where to go. Jack has emphasised part of his thought process involved deep analysis of where Forrest would want to end his days. That option was open to all of us. The memoir covers death, dying and burial. It is clear from his answers that he also figured out the vast majority of the puzzle and Forrests intentions of it, even Forrest alluded to this (I take 'following the clues' to mean 'deciphered them'). The narrative we are expected to believe is that Jack, who had never met Forrest, and hadn't heard of him prior to 2018, figured out Forrest's special place in 2 weeks. You cannot even watch and read all of Forrest's first-person source material (books, videos) in twice that amount of time doing it 24/7, let alone all the Scrapbooks, Vignettes, Speed Bumps, Q&A's and Jenny's 6 Questions. It's not humanly possible. Yet Jack sleuthed out information that eluded Doug Preston, Russ, Gadi, Dal and Cynthia: folks that spent dozens and in some cases hundreds of hours with Forrest 1-on-1. Why are so many searchers unskeptical? |
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Post by Jenny on Dec 18, 2020 7:42:08 GMT -5
Jack has emphasised part of his thought process involved deep analysis of where Forrest would want to end his days. That option was open to all of us. The memoir covers death, dying and burial. It is clear from his answers that he also figured out the vast majority of the puzzle and Forrests intentions of it, even Forrest alluded to this (I take 'following the clues' to mean 'deciphered them'). The narrative we are expected to believe is that Jack, who had never met Forrest, and hadn't heard of him prior to 2018, figured out Forrest's special place in 2 weeks. You cannot even watch and read all of Forrest's first-person source material (books, videos) in twice that amount of time doing it 24/7, let alone all the Scrapbooks, Vignettes, Speed Bumps, Q&A's and Jenny's 6 Questions. It's not humanly possible. Yet Jack sleuthed out information that eluded Doug Preston, Russ, Gadi, Dal and Cynthia: folks that spent dozens and in some cases hundreds of hours with Forrest 1-on-1. Why are so many searchers unskeptical? I think the real question is why are so many searchers skeptical? You can read TTOTC and know he loved Yellowstone..... you can go 'All in' on that location..... Other searchers, could have read the 'TTOTC' and know he loved Hebgen Lake, and went 'All in' on that location.... And other searchers could have read the 'TTOTC' and went 'All in' for many other locations..... The 'Rocky Mountains' are not so huge that with numerous searchers searching, that one of those 'All in spots' would eventually be 'thee spot'........ Whoever found it at the location they went 'All in' on can then say, 'I knew it was there all along'.....and sure there will be lots of questions, but ultimately, it was a 'Seek and you shall find' scenario..... one of those 'all in' locations by searchers was bound to be the spot. The world is not so big..... The poem is interpretational.... vague..... could work for lots of places.... Jack happened to go 'All in' on the correct location..... done deal... over... It could be like that... it is the most likely scenario and those who love and quoted 'Occam's Razor' during the whole hunt shouldn't have issue with it..... |
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Post by davebakedpotato on Dec 18, 2020 7:58:11 GMT -5
Jack has emphasised part of his thought process involved deep analysis of where Forrest would want to end his days. That option was open to all of us. The memoir covers death, dying and burial. It is clear from his answers that he also figured out the vast majority of the puzzle and Forrests intentions of it, even Forrest alluded to this (I take 'following the clues' to mean 'deciphered them'). The narrative we are expected to believe is that Jack, who had never met Forrest, and hadn't heard of him prior to 2018, figured out Forrest's special place in 2 weeks. You cannot even watch and read all of Forrest's first-person source material (books, videos) in twice that amount of time doing it 24/7, let alone all the Scrapbooks, Vignettes, Speed Bumps, Q&A's and Jenny's 6 Questions. It's not humanly possible. Yet Jack sleuthed out information that eluded Doug Preston, Russ, Gadi, Dal and Cynthia: folks that spent dozens and in some cases hundreds of hours with Forrest 1-on-1. Why are so many searchers unskeptical? "All you need is the poem". It doesn't take two weeks to read the poem. You can read TTOTC in a few hours. Did Jack say he did *all* his research in two weeks? How good is your list of candidates track record of solving poem-based treasure hunts? More than one's approach was to head out into the wilderness on little more than a hunch as far as I can tell. Why are so many EX-searchers conspiracy theorists? All the above is moot anyway - it's over! Unless you plan to join the ranks of disgruntled people suing rather than getting on with their lives. Plenty more hunts. |
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Post by goldilocks on Dec 18, 2020 14:35:18 GMT -5
DaveBakedPotato Questioning things in the absence of evidence is not promoting conspiracy theories. I do not have enough evidence to say one way or the other if Jack is indeed the Finder. It may be moot but that doesn't mean I don't want answers.
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Post by davebakedpotato on Dec 18, 2020 15:47:14 GMT -5
DaveBakedPotato Questioning things in the absence of evidence is not promoting conspiracy theories. I do not have enough evidence to say one way or the other if Jack is indeed the Finder. It may be moot but that doesn't mean I don't want answers. Well, he's clearly the owner. |
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Post by davebakedpotato on Dec 18, 2020 15:49:25 GMT -5
Also conspiracy = Fenn is a liar.
We do have a concrete example of him lying, but in this case?..
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Dec 18, 2020 16:56:31 GMT -5
Hi Jenny, Goldilocks, Ladyv, Dave, and Zaphod,
Jenny raises a great point: many people posted about adamant devotion to particular location(s). The reasoning, when shared, was of variable quality but there nonetheless. I agree with Jenny that it isn't too surprising that one beloved site would turn out to be the correct location. Hearing about this behavior in others, it isn't surprising to me that Jack made several trips (the first on very short notice) to the same location and spent 25+ days in the area looking for the chest. None of this is different from the many stories shared on these forums. The difference, of course, is that Jack got it right. He hasn't shared what made him so sure, as far as I've seen. At this point it's impossible to assess why he had this confidence and if it would be a confidence that can be explained and accepted by others. He stresses his methodical nature and expounds about cognitive biases, but he hasn't shared enough information for us to judge for ourselves whether these were actual factors that played a role in his by all accounts pre-discovery high level of confidence in his particular location.
Ladyv, I too am unsettled because there is only a vague outline of the story; I'm unsettled because it is an incomplete story, not because I'm concerned about its veracity at this point. I'm not concerned that a lot of other dedicated, intelligent people tried and were unsuccessful--that's not a unique to this story. From Jenny's Six Questions: "I also tried to incorporate everything I knew about the nature of the hunt and everything I knew about how he thought and what was important to him. And when I started to feel like I had certain concepts down, and I felt like I knew what region the treasure was in and what sort of “solve” we needed, I did incorporate some other information from other sources that have nothing to do with Forrest Fenn that I felt could help inform me." That sums up Jack's story at this point. That's very vague and unsatisfying.
Zaphod and Goldilocks, what would you like to see from Jack that would tie things up for you? What would make you un-skeptical?
Setting aside any legal reasons (e.g. the ongoing lawsuits or legal ownership issues), I don't understand the point of Jack's withholding of the location and a more detailed story. His idea of conserving the location rings very hollow; if it was preordained that this was a concern of Fenn or part of the conditions of finding the chest, then I'd understand. However, this seems like the post hoc rationalization of something that Jack just doesn't want to do and it comes across as disingenuous. I'd rather hear, "I don't want to."
We've learned a lot more than we were led to believe we would after this summer's announcement. Perhaps more things are forthcoming and Jack wants to save much of the material for a future release. I'd be surprised if more and more didn't come out going forward. I wouldn't describe myself as skeptical, but I do want to hear more. I don't care much for the notion of the continued exercise of solving it myself--and anyone who does have that concern can tune out. I want to hear more for the same reason that I took things apart as a kid. I'm curious how the thing worked. The outcome is less interesting, although I think Jack's story could be interesting too. And he sounds like he could write an interesting story. He mentions that--and says how he'd like to talk a lot about other people's stories and how they got it wrong. If so, and he hasn't already, I recommend that Jack read The Quest for the Golden Hare, which devoted more space to incorrect solutions than it did to the correct one.
Dave, are you working on another hunt nowadays?
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Post by zaphod73491 on Dec 18, 2020 19:22:45 GMT -5
Hi All still following along. I want to point out (as a scientist myself) that being skeptical in the face of limited data is a sensible position to take, as opposed to blind faith in a story with very few facts. The relevant facts as I see them:
1. On the evening of June 6th, 2020, Forrest reports on Dal's that the treasure has been found.
2. A little over a week later we are provided a picture of the open treasure chest on the ground, out in nature, and it is clearly the same chest that we've seen many times before, along with identifiable treasure pieces.
3. On July 22nd, Forrest writes, in part: "However, the finder understands how important some closure is for many searchers, so today he agreed that we should reveal that the treasure was found in Wyoming. Until he found the treasure, the treasure had not moved in the 10 years since I left it there on the ground, and walked away. Perhaps today's announcement will bring some closure to those whose solves were in New Mexico, Colorado, or Montana."
4. On September 23rd, the first medium.com article comes out which includes a second picture of the treasure chest very close to the location of the first outdoor picture, but with the lid closed. This at the very least establishes that the writer has access to the same field photos that Forrest did in June, and the simplest explanation is that he is the source of said photos.
5. Jack Stuef outs himself on medium.com as the finder, explaining that New Mexico's U.S. District Court has ruled that Forrest's estate must provide some of his personal information to Barbra Andersen as a consequence of her lawsuit. (While I agree with Jack's strategy of taking control in this case, I'm not sure that the District Court had actually ruled in favor of the plaintiff -- at least not at that time.)
6. The treasure chest clearly makes its way to Santa Fe at some point, as we see Forrest with it in a conference room looking through its contents.
7. Later, another picture is provided that shows Jack (with a blue mask on the table in front of him) in that same conference room with Forrest. This establishes a covid-era time stamp on that picture -- assuming the image hasn't been tampered with.
The overall narrative is that Jack found the chest on Friday, June 5th, but left it there overnight. He called Forrest on the 5th to ask for permission to remove it. He returns to the spot Saturday, June 6th, and retrieves the treasure (presumably with Forrest's blessing), and begins his journey from there to Santa Fe. In the coming days he visits Forrest both at his home and at the undisclosed private room location (presumably a bank in Santa Fe). The treasure most likely remains in a safety deposit box in that bank. Eventually, the finder flies home -- presumably out of Santa Fe.
I don't have any real issues with this narrative or timeline. I believe the treasure was retrieved in early June, that it was transported from its hiding location to Santa Fe, and that it remains there now for the time being. Sure, there are some troubling logistics related to covid lockdowns, but I see these as obstacles, not preventive conditions.
What I don't see is evidence that Jack solved the poem. However, I realize his hands are tied in that regard since he wishes to maintain secrecy about his solution. The vague description of clue-solving that he has provided seems very much at odds with at least a dozen statements Forrest has made since the beginning of the Chase, most notably involving the potential longevity of the Chase, the features of "the blaze," the geographic precision of the clues, the necessity of nailing down WWWH, and Forrest's assumption that the clues could not be short-cutted. If you want, I can gather up the top 10 or so "ATFs" that seem most in conflict with statements Jack has made about the nature of the solution.
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