New Orleans may be St. Louis, MO

[cyndi50]

Has anyone else on the forum considered this image may be St. Louis, MO and not New Orleans?  I grew up on the Gulf Coast and I can say the area you are looking was not a place you would take kids or hang out treasure hunting during the 80's.  The whole French Quarter/ downtown area was really sketchy at that time.

Looking at the photo, the image of the Cardinal mid left (St. Louis Cardinals) stands out.  The dog on the lower right is Purina Stadium (also known as checkerdome arena).  The shading around the dog is the shape of the arena.  The "flying" man in the clock dressed in 19th century clothes would be Charles Lindbergh (flew the Spirit of St. Louis).  His foot is in the shape of Manhattan, his hand is in the shape of Paris (he flew from Manhattan to Paris).  The side of the mask face (bluish outline) is the shape of the St. Louis Arch.  The Busch Beer symbol is on his hand by his sleeve.  Over to the left of the sleeve there is "M" and some other letters (I think it is MIZZOU" for Missouri University).  Preservation could be Preservation Park (which is now called Forest Park).  The "flower" in the upper left corner matches the Pagoda Circle outlined map near the "Jewel Box" in Forest Park.  The stars in the clock match the stars in the Missouri flag.  The "crown" in the mid-right could be the Budweiser Beer symbol.  St. Louis is known for it's Blues (St. Louis Blues).  The mouth of the mask is the shape of the shape of the Grand Basin in Forest Park which is close to the Art Museum.  The Art Museum was formerly known as The Palace of Fine Arts (Palace is a place where Jewels abound) and it has 15 rows of steps in the front of the building.  There is the outline of "M's" in many locations of the drawing.  The squiggles in the clock hands could be "St. Louis" (there could be other interpretations given the shapes).

Of other note, the "sovereign people" quote referencing the St. Charles hotel in New Orleans could actually just be a "St. Charles" reference.  St. Charles was the first capitol of Missouri and the St. Charles Hotel was demolished in 1974.  It was a vacant lot until 1984 when the new hotel was built.  The book was published in 1982.  This means the research would have taken place prior.

Just a thought.......

[cyndi50]

I'm convincing myself more and more that this is Forest Park in St. Louis, MO.

1. The "sovereign people" quote - no average teen in the early 80's would have known who Domingo Faustino was (very obscure historical figure). There wasn't an internet for them to google it. The phase would have been taken as face value without references to St. Charles Hotel. Taking that into account, I think the take away is "Palaces". Forest Park has both "Jewels abound" with the Jewel Box and "Palaces" with the Palace of Fine Art.

2. In the solved puzzles, one of the coordinates is fairly obvious the other is obscure (Cleveland-the 14 vs 41). Forest Park's coordinates are 38 and 90. Specifically, 38.63 N x 90.29 W. I think the 90 and 29 in the clock corners is a coordinate and the "19" is to throw us off. The 38 is in the clock hands (63 could be in there as well with all the squiggles).

3. Gnomes admire and Fays delight the namesake meeting near this sight - admire/delight could reference the art museum or the Shakespeare in the park (also located at the art museum). The Apotheosis of St. Louis is in front of the museum (St. Louis namesake).

4. As the Sound of Friends fills the afternoon hours. There is large green space, Art Hill, in front of the museum specifically for picnicking adjacent to the Grand Basin (which I think is mapped in the mouth of the mask).

I think there are a lot of "fits" here......

[0o The Puzzler o0]

Like you I don't believe that this or any of The Secret image belongs to New Orleans.

I've considered Atlanta, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and Hartford for that image.


Atlanta is my front-runner because of the Fox Theater.
Theater mask looks like an image of Redd Foxx, the griffin/wolf/dog could be a fox, and the Fox Theater's ceiling looks like the semi-circle blue sky with stars like on the clock (complete with twinkling stars).

St Louis you covered.

Hartford just because of the Colt Armory's dome matching the blue field with yellow stars.

Philadelphia simply because I'd be very surprised if Preiss didn't include it in the hunt...he included NY, Boston, and Chicago, and it just seems to me that he would also include Philadelphia.

[zaphod73491]

Jan 1, 2021 22:39:04 GMT -5 cyndi50 said:

I'm convincing myself more and more that this is Forest Park in St. Louis, MO.

1. The "sovereign people" quote - no average teen in the early 80's would have known who Domingo Faustino was (very obscure historical figure). There wasn't an internet for them to google it. The phase would have been taken as face value without references to St. Charles Hotel. Taking that into account, I think the take away is "Palaces". Forest Park has both "Jewels abound" with the Jewel Box and "Palaces" with the Palace of Fine Art.

2. In the solved puzzles, one of the coordinates is fairly obvious the other is obscure (Cleveland-the 14 vs 41). Forest Park's coordinates are 38 and 90. Specifically, 38.63 N x 90.29 W. I think the 90 and 29 in the clock corners is a coordinate and the "19" is to throw us off. The 38 is in the clock hands (63 could be in there as well with all the squiggles).

3. Gnomes admire and Fays delight the namesake meeting near this sight - admire/delight could reference the art museum or the Shakespeare in the park (also located at the art museum). The Apotheosis of St. Louis is in front of the museum (St. Louis namesake).

4. As the Sound of Friends fills the afternoon hours. There is large green space, Art Hill, in front of the museum specifically for picnicking adjacent to the Grand Basin (which I think is mapped in the mouth of the mask).

I think there are a lot of "fits" here......

Hi cyndi50: For what it's worth, I agree with you that St. Louis is a much better fit than the Big Easy. It wouldn't surprise me if one purpose of the masquerade mask was to head-fake New Orleans in concert with the Verse: jewels + harlequin mask = Mardi Gras. The "90" longitude only further serves to muddy the waters since both cities share that longitude.

But the St. Louis clues are much stronger than all the weak force-fitting that I've seen done for New Orleans. The catenary shape of the Gateway Arch (upside down in the mask and highlighted in Palencar's signature "hint blue") trumps a simple white circle supposedly representing the Super Dome. The checkerboard pattern of the overall illustration certainly calls to mind St. Louis-headquartered Purina and Checkerdome Arena. And in my opinion, an element of the Apotheosis of St. Louis sculpture *is* hidden in the illustration, strongly fingering Forest Park.

[0o The Puzzler o0]

The Ambassador Theater, demolished in 1996, was adorned with 2 terra cotta Griffins.

The Fabulous Fox currently has 2 griffins sitting out front.

[divalicious]

I agree with you about New Orleans being St. Louis, MO.
I actually think there may be a casque buried in Lafayette Park, which is 15 blocks ("rows") down from the Forest Park Jewel Box. The park is surrounded on all sides by historic, 100 ft wide streets (Missouri Ave, Mississippi Ave, Park Ave, and Lafayette Ave). At first, I suspected that the "namesakes meeting" might be refer to Missouri and Mississippi Aves.
Then, I realized the opposite side of the Park Ave block is bisected by one end of 21st street. The other end of 21st street bisects Aloe Plaza, leading you right in front of the famous Carl Milles fountain (which itself sits in front of Union Station).
This massive fountain is called "The Meeting of the Waters," and features two water nymph-like representations of the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, "meeting" one another. 
This fountain was so historic and well known in the 1970s that it was actually one of the five landmark descriptors provided for the city of St. Louis in the heavily circulated 1973 Rand McNally Travel Atlas and Road Map. The description of St. Louis, MO in that publication reads "From the great arch of the Gateway to the West to the Jewel Box in Forest Park, St. Louis is an enchanting city. Old cathedrals, outdoor operettas at the Muny, and Milles statuary add their thrilling touches to this midwestern city." 
I also believe that if Preiss ever engaged with park police at any point when burying the casques it was likely in Lafayette Park Square. In December 1982, the St. Louis Post Dispatch ran a short news article featuring the recent success of the Lafayette Park Neighborhood Protection Association. This was a group of off-duty police officers who patrolled the neighborhood. The group's leader, William J Dye explained that although the group had not arrested anyone in the past year, their presence resulted in a dramatic decrease in crime. Dye noted that the crimes prevented "were not crimes against property," but declined to elaborate further. It's probably not a significant lead, and may not be successful, but I reached out to Marit Clark who was the President of the Lafayette Square Restoration Committee at the time to see if she would be willing to speak with me about any memories she has regarding the park from 1980-1982 just in case. I am awaiting her response, and will update if I learn anything! 
I am still actively working on the St. Louis Puzzle, but my rough theory starts at the St. Louis Jewel Box and ends at Lafayette Square Park. Notable destinations along the path and "near the site" include the Milles Fountain at Aloe Plaza (which I previously mentioned), as well as the Compton Hill Water Tower Park, which you pass on Lafayette Ave, three blocks before you hit Lafayette Square Park, coming from the Forest Park Jewel Box. 

The Compton Hill Water Tower Reservoir is a historic park and holds one of St. Louis's historic water towers, of which there are three. St. Louis is the ONLY city with three of these historic water tower structures. Chicago has only one, but it was significant enough in the early 1980s that JJP actually painted it into the Chicago painting as a major clue and marker for that city.

The Compton Hill Water Tower Park features a famous statue called "The Naked Truth," gifted to the city to honor the large German-American immigrant community of St. Louis. German-American immigration is a theme that bleeds into the Lafayette Square Park neighborhood, but in a more nuanced way. The Lafayette Square Park neighborhood was famously shaped by both the French and German immigrants who lived there. German and French cultural influences are strong, surrounding the park on all sides. (There is a lot more to say about that, but space and time is limited, so I'll wrap up my novel of an explanation here). 

TLDR: St. Louis is a highly probable casque site, in my opinion. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts and develop this further if there is enough interest. 

[zaphod73491]

I should transfer my posts here from the New Orleans thread. This is a St. Louis puzzle.

[chrisdherc]

Jan 4, 2021 16:07:07 GMT -5 0o The Puzzler o0 said:

Like you I don't believe that this or any of The Secret image belongs to New Orleans.

I've considered Atlanta, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and Hartford for that image.


Atlanta is my front-runner because of the Fox Theater.
Theater mask looks like an image of Redd Foxx, the griffin/wolf/dog could be a fox, and the Fox Theater's ceiling looks like the semi-circle blue sky with stars like on the clock (complete with twinkling stars).

St Louis you covered.

Hartford just because of the Colt Armory's dome matching the blue field with yellow stars.

Philadelphia simply because I'd be very surprised if Preiss didn't include it in the hunt...he included NY, Boston, and Chicago, and it just seems to me that he would also include Philadelphia.

And Washington d.c. I just started with this a few hours ago and here is where I'm at with the roanoke/st. Louis/etcetera one....first the hour glass. Represents the one inside of the immigration department. The checkerboard..I dont know if you've ever experienced d.c. but nearly the entire city is made of blocks. Checkerboard esque.. next the flower I believe I'd a cherry blossom. Next the dogeater statue is obviously modified I believe it was done so to lead us to the fact it was Italian made. In d.c. there 4 statues depicting love and war that were gifted to the states by Italy. Which are gold in color btw. Robert e. Lee's wife had a rose garden and the original plans for a monument of sorts I believe was going to go in it's place depicting the property being used as a hospital basically for immigrant and slave soldiers. The rose garden was dug up, and once she saw it she left and never returned. I want to say they were payed in gold for the property illegally some few years later. The music note represents the voice that changed a nation. The I believe only recording of that song is stored in a building in d.c. marked with a music note. I'm about to work on it some more, but I'm theorizing his collar could possibly be the Maryland and Virginia borders to d.c. thats where I am at

[chrisdherc]

Also I think the St. Augustine one is supposed to be tampa bay. Fort Desoto park in Bradenton is my guess but it could be actual fort de Soto as well. The indigenous Seminole were one if only 2 native American tribes that never surrendered to the u.s. and their stories are told better at these locations. They were also looking for the fountain of youth in these areas too, and not to mention tampa is the more likely Airport you'd fly into Florida to..and closest to the fort Desoto parks.

[chrisdherc]

Never surrender to Spain or u.s. ****

[chrisdherc]

In the d.c one his face has to symbolize something. Gonna look into maybe some Birdseye view photos or maybe the ponds have something to do with it.

[Sy Ferman]

I found this during a recent search. Image of the World's Fair in St. Louis. Title of the image is "A palace for kings, the sovereign people, Government Bldg. and Sunken Gardens, World's Fair, St. Louis, Mo."

Link to photo - www.loc.gov/item/2013649171/

This building was located near to the Jewel Box in Forest Park. Lot's of possibilities there.

[wbgrimesii]

Sorry it's in New Orleans. The park associated with the dig location can be overlayed on the clock and gives the exact spot.

[0o The Puzzler o0]

Dec 4, 2021 7:56:59 GMT -5 chrisdherc said:

Jan 4, 2021 16:07:07 GMT -5 0o The Puzzler o0 said:

Like you I don't believe that this or any of The Secret image belongs to New Orleans.

I've considered Atlanta, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and Hartford for that image.


Atlanta is my front-runner because of the Fox Theater.
Theater mask looks like an image of Redd Foxx, the griffin/wolf/dog could be a fox, and the Fox Theater's ceiling looks like the semi-circle blue sky with stars like on the clock (complete with twinkling stars).

St Louis you covered.

Hartford just because of the Colt Armory's dome matching the blue field with yellow stars.

Philadelphia simply because I'd be very surprised if Preiss didn't include it in the hunt...he included NY, Boston, and Chicago, and it just seems to me that he would also include Philadelphia.

And Washington d.c. I just started with this a few hours ago and here is where I'm at with the roanoke/st. Louis/etcetera one....first the hour glass. Represents the one inside of the immigration department. The checkerboard..I dont know if you've ever experienced d.c. but nearly the entire city is made of blocks. Checkerboard esque.. next the flower I believe I'd a cherry blossom. Next the dogeater statue is obviously modified I believe it was done so to lead us to the fact it was Italian made. In d.c. there 4 statues depicting love and war that were gifted to the states by Italy. Which are gold in color btw. Robert e. Lee's wife had a rose garden and the original plans for a monument of sorts I believe was going to go in it's place depicting the property being used as a hospital basically for immigrant and slave soldiers. The rose garden was dug up, and once she saw it she left and never returned. I want to say they were payed in gold for the property illegally some few years later. The music note represents the voice that changed a nation. The I believe only recording of that song is stored in a building in d.c. marked with a music note. I'm about to work on it some more, but I'm theorizing his collar could possibly be the Maryland and Virginia borders to d.c. thats where I am at

Philadelphia is the first major U.S. city to be built as a grid (1682)

[0o The Puzzler o0]

Additionally, St. George and the Dragon statue (1877) is in the same park and not too far from the Smith Memorial Arch.

We clearly see an archway in the image and that character in the bottom-right is dragon-like.

Add in the bell-shaped flowers and of course we know why a bell would be associated with Philly.

Some good signs it might be Philly. Not enough to be certain but New Orleans just never felt correct for that image to me.