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Post by stiparest on Aug 24, 2018 6:44:14 GMT -5
We know undoubtedly that the Blue Stars spell NUMBERS. The others is where I start to wonder if we are dealing with a coincidence. Why OPE without the N? Why RIDLDE instead of Riddle? An so on... I don't think it really matters if NUMBERS is the only word that is spelled correctly. Would you use the phrase differently if if was
Numbers, or Numbers Ope, or Numbers Ope Hidfen, or Numbers Ope Hidfen Treusre, or Numbers Ope Hidfen Treusre Ridlde, or Numbers Open Hidden Treasure Riddle?
It seems that even without the other words, it pretty much means that numbers are used somehow. The fact that the first letter of each word spells NORTH could be the purpose for the remaining words. Just about every known 'clue' in this book is something that is either incomplete or incorrect. CMASQUERADE has a scattering of letters and blank spaces and PAEC FORTY SOUTH is misspelled.The text switches tense and is full of grammatical errors and odd word usage. The borders use spelling and phrasing that is unnatural - Sceptre (British) instead of Scepter, A Tail to Tell instead of A Tale To Tell, At Journey End instead of At Journey's End. In the end, the fact that these words are misspelled fits perfectly with everything else in the book!
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Post by Jenny on Aug 24, 2018 7:07:36 GMT -5
To get NORTH... I read it and order the colors as:
Numbers - Blue Open- Pink Riddle-- Red
Treasure-- Yellow Hidden-- Orange
It's interesting that the signposts use colors too....
And the squares use colors...
Seems colors are used a lot.
NUMBERS is blue (found by blue starpoints)...maybe its BLUE that is important to opening the riddle and not numbers. or maybe the blue signposts numbers... WHICH by the way are 9, 18, and 18... (which give RED- Riddle).....and I is the 9th letter in the alphabet.. so we are back to 'eyes' again...lol...
oh the circles...
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Post by goldhunter on Aug 24, 2018 7:24:55 GMT -5
haha maybe it's "hidden numbers open treasure riddle"
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Post by stiparest on Aug 24, 2018 7:32:14 GMT -5
haha maybe it's "hidden numbers open treasure riddle" Right. Even rearranged, it still gives us the same impression: Numbers Ope Riddle - Treasure Hidden. = NORTH. Maybe we are supposed to put them in that order, then use the associated numbers: 12543
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Post by Jenny on Aug 24, 2018 7:34:40 GMT -5
There was a lot of time put in to create the message or words (and mistakes) of the Star Points. Understanding it's full intent might be vital to the solution.
While I think NORTH is a hidden clue, found by the acronym, I don't think it is the only thing to the star points.
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Post by stiparest on Aug 24, 2018 7:55:13 GMT -5
There was a lot of time put in to create the message or words (and mistakes) of the Star Points. Understanding it's full intent might be vital to the solution. While I think NORTH is a hidden clue, found by the acronym, I don't think it is the only thing to the star points. I agree!
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Post by jonsey1 on Sept 2, 2018 21:27:06 GMT -5
Its possible the letters are mixed up/ missing to indicate it's an anagram itself or something
"Numbers Ope Hidfen Treusre Ridlde" could be just as easily "Fishers Pond buried under elm tree" or something like that.
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Post by catherwood on Mar 5, 2019 21:03:16 GMT -5
We know undoubtedly that the Blue Stars spell NUMBERS. The others is where I start to wonder if we are dealing with a coincidence. Why OPE without the N? Why RIDLDE instead of Riddle? An so on... hello again, here I am, bumping an old thread for new analysis. This time, I am trying to recreate data that is only weakly documented. (I searched this forum as well as on Tweleve.org but might have missed something, and there is very little on Q4T at all). I was looking for a detailed list of the letters and where they come from, to compare to what I gathered. It started out with great promise, but falls apart... I tried to document not the location of the intersection, but instead note the two stars from which lines originate; I use Bottom-Left and Upper-Right as abbreviations below. First, the BLUE star-points: PAGE | Letter
| intersect | 7 | N | BR+UR | 11 | U | BR+UR | 17 | M | UL+UR | 30 | B | BR+UR | 40 | E | UL+BL
| 47 | R | BR+UR | 51 | S | BR+UR |
Next, the PINK star-points: PAGE | Letter
| intersect | 19 | O | BL+UL
| 26 | P | UL+UR
| 30 | E | BL+UL | 44-45 | ?? | ?? |
The double-page spread on pp.44-45 presents some problem drawing an accurate line, but even given myself a wide margin of error, I couldn't see any way to gather another letter. Third, the ORANGE star-points: PAGE | Letter
| intersect | 5 | H | BL+UL | 7 | (D) | UL+UR | 23 | I | BL+UL | 26 | D | BR+UR
| 32 | (F) | BR+UR | 40 | (T) | BL+UR | 47 | E | BL+UL | 51 | N | BL+UL | 55 | (L) | UR+BL |
The letters F and T are definitely at intersections, but only with a wide margin of error. Anagramming this set is either "HIDDEN FT" or "FIND THE D". *(letters in parenthes are disputed, and most don't help the anagram anyway.) Fourth, the YELLOW star-points: PAGE | Letter
| intersect | 7 | T | BL+UL | 11 | R | BL+UL | 19 | E | BR+UR
| 26 | U | BL+BR
| 34 | (N) | UR+side | 35 | S | BR+UR | 40 | R | BR+UR | 51 | E | UL+UR
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Working across the one double-page spread, I am fairly confident of the N and S on pp.34-35 but wish that had been an A instead. While TREUNSRE is painfully close to TREASURE, I would hate to miss its real intention by jumping to a conclusion we want to see. * (that N was debatable anyway)Lastly, the RED star-points: PAGE | Letter
| intersect | 5 | R | BR+UR | 15 | (E) | BL+BR | 17 | I | BL+BR | 23 | D | BR+UR | 30 | L | BR+UR | 32 | (A) | UL+BR | 34 | D | BL+UL | 35 | ? | ?? | 44 | E | BL+side | 51 | (D) | BL+UR | 51 | (N) | BR+UL |
Wow. So much noise. I could make a case for a handful of intersections on the double-page spread, but they are weak; I thought I had multiple intersections on page 51, so I am including the N as an extra, but unlikely. (I've added the D to page 34 and the I to page 17, which I had earlier missed)In addition, I catch ZERO intersections on page 55, so why does that painting have stars at all? I've been staring at these corner stars (64 plus 2 extra on the double-pages) for several days, but I would be happy to have someone check my work. (Maybe no one ever posted it because it is *such*a*pain* to create a table in BBCode, but also for fear of violating a clause in the rules about sharing results in a public forum)
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Post by stiparest on Mar 5, 2019 22:33:06 GMT -5
We know undoubtedly that the Blue Stars spell NUMBERS. The others is where I start to wonder if we are dealing with a coincidence. Why OPE without the N? Why RIDLDE instead of Riddle? An so on... hello again, here I am, bumping an old thread for new analysis. This time, I am trying to recreate data that is only weakly documented. (I searched this forum as well as on Tweleve.org but might have missed something, and there is very little on Q4T at all). I was looking for a detailed list of the letters and where they come from, to compare to what I gathered. It started out with great promise, but falls apart... I tried to document not the location of the intersection, but instead note the two stars from which lines originate; I use Bottom-Left and Upper-Right as abbreviations below. I've been staring at these corner stars (64 plus 2 extra on the double-pages) for several days, but I would be happy to have someone check my work. (Maybe no one ever posted it because it is *such*a*pain* to create a table in BBCode, but also for fear of violating a clause in the rules about sharing results in a public forum) Catherwood, thanks for this - it's good to see how someone else constructs the 'star code.' I agree with most of what you have with a few variations, noted below. First, I decided to NOT use the stars on pages 15, 32, or 55. The reason for this is that the stars are not clearly drawn and the colors are not the same as the other pages. Because they are poorly drawn, the trajectory to follow is unclear. Additionally, the letters from these pages -and these pages alone, do not help the words/ phrase at all. I agree with your Blue and Pink words, NUMBERS OPE. You have ORANGE star-points: PAGE Letter intersect 5 H BL+UL 7 D UL+UR *These star points are not orange 23 I BL+UL 26 D BR+UR 32 F BR+UR *I did not use the letter from this page 40 T BL+UR *I don't see that the orange on these stars point to any letter 47 E BL+UL 51 N BL+UL 55 (L) UR+BL* *I did not use the letter from this page - as you said below, it doesn't help the anagram at all. What I get for orange is HIDEN You have the YELLOW star-points: Page Letter Intersect 7 T BL+UL 11 R BL+UL 19 E BR+UR 26 U BL+BR 34 N UR+side *I was unsure whether to include both the S and the N because it used the same star point twice. N seems most likely - the point
goes UNDER the S, but S makes more sense!
35 S BR+UR
40 R BR+UR 51 E UL+UR What I get is TREUSRE or TREUNRE You have the RED star-points: PAGE Letter intersect 5 R BR+UR 15 E BL+BR *I did not use letters from this page 17 I BL+BR 23 D BR+UR 30 L BR+UR 32 A UL+BR *I did not use letters from this page 34-35 D BL+UL 44 E BL+side 51 D BL+UR *I do not see any red letters on this page 51 (N) BR+UL *I do not see this letter - I only see an orange N on this page So, I get RIDLDE As I said, I opted to leave out pages 15, 32 and 55, feeling they were poorly painted intentionally and serve as 'no-clue' pages, or red herrings, thrown in to confuse us. What I get is NUMBERS OPE HIDEN TREUSRE RIDLDE. Let me know if I missed something. I'd be interested to see if others get anything different.
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Post by rarbowen on Mar 6, 2019 3:35:27 GMT -5
I, too have been working on the stars this week, and both of your answers interest me. It is very late now, and I can't study them until tomorrow, but I will add what I have also found. Thank you both for doing all that work. I have struggled with these things since last Friday. I have them on Powerpoint and can enlarge them enough to get the lines where they should be (I think).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 9:44:14 GMT -5
By far the most useful discussion I have seen regarding how intersecting star points of the same color pick out letters is in the Star Code thread on Tweleve. The initial critical observation was posted by stvwx in 2009. Later in the thread, there is a key interchange between him and Agrisin, who was the one who figured out how the grid on page 40 assigns numbers to the five colors of the star points.
In particular, look carefully at the last post by stvwz on 7/19/12. He correctly reorders the words "NUMBERS OPEN HIDDEN TREASURE RIDDLE" but, remarkably, fails to notice that the corresponding colors are reordered in exactly the same sequence Agrisin read off the grid (B. P, O, Y, R).
The chance that they would match by accident is 1 in 120. In my opinion, this is really the moment in the history of the puzzle when the likely role of a Polybius code first emerges from solid clues. The rebus on page 23 (POLLY-BE-US) is almost certainly just a playful confirmer.
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Post by stiparest on Mar 6, 2019 11:43:33 GMT -5
There may be a reason for the misspelled words in the star code. There has been a lot of discussion about exactly what it says and which letters to accept, etc. It has also been noted that the first letters of NUMBERS OPE HIDEN TREUSRE RIDLDE can be rearranged to spell NORTH. Has anybody noticed that when you do this, a number of other words can also be identified? I made up a grid, but can't figure out how to attach it here, so this is the best I can do for now:
N-O-R-T-H = NORTH U-P-I--R-I = UP and RIDE (clockwise from the R of TREUSRE to the I&D of RIDLDE to the E of TREUSRE) M-E-D-E-D B----L-U-E = BLUE (which would explain the misspelled OPE and TREUSRE) E----D-S-N = ENDS R-------R-- S----E-E--- = SEE
The remaining letters, MEDIRR spell RED RIM
So we have some combination of RIDE ENDS UP NORTH RIM. SEE RED BLUE. This is just one possible combination of words, but you get the picture. If someone can tell me how to add a picture, I can post the chart, which is easier to see with the words boxed off. I tried my best to get things lined up, but the formatting moved everything around when I posted it. I've tried to rearrange all the letters so they stay close to where they belong!
As you can see, though, omitting the N of OPEN, switching the D & L of RIDDLE, and misspelling TREASURE, puts all the letters needed for BLUE in a direct line.
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Post by rarbowen on Mar 7, 2019 2:01:45 GMT -5
Catherwood and Stiparest, I have spent some time this evening comparing my star points and letters with yours. First I want to say that Stiparest and I agree in all of his comments beside the ones you posted, Catherwood. I had not seen his when I began working on this tonight, so feel confirmed that two of us agree on those points. I do have some other comments about some that both of you seem to agree upon that I can NOT get. I am working in an enlarged 300%-400% Power Point presentation and using a straight line drawing tool. I must be doing something wrong since you both reached the same consensus about the letters. Anyway, here are my concerns: P. 5 BR red hits E. UR red hits F.
P. 26 How do you get orange on BR to hit D without going through O? How does UL pink go to P?
P.30 The red star point on the BR hits the E. If I force it to go past the E, the straight line then goes beyond the last E in “circle”. It would have to go through the E to hit the L.
P. 35 Are you using the UR yellow star point twice; once for S ? It is already being used to point to the N on page 34.
P. 44 I am not getting the E. BL goes to E in “THE”. Side red star point goes to T in “THE”.
Thank you both for your hard work. Again, so close and yet so far!
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Post by astree on Mar 7, 2019 6:30:41 GMT -5
Thank you listing details and variations on this use of the stars. Also, by not automatically filtering or re-interpreting it allows for a fuller spectrum of uses.
from catherwood, previous page
“Third, the ORANGE star-points:
PAGE Letter intersect
5 H BL+UL 7 D UL+UR 23 I BL+UL 26 D BR+UR 32 F BR+UR 40 T BL+UR 47 E BL+UL 51 N BL+UL 55 (L) UR+BL*
The letters F and T are definitely at intersections. Anagramming this set is either "HIDDEN FT" or "FIND THE D". *(Maybe there is something on p.55 after all, but it doesn't help the anagram at all)”
To point out several items, p. 5 and 55 are the first and last image, all 5’s. E = 5 = V, and p. 55 has those as red letters. P. 5 and 55 have red borders.
You pointed to something, and went right past it, which i believe could be extremely critical for the location. If you remind me, i will tell when this hunt is over.
Heres an interesting thing about p. 55 ... (A) TRE(A)SURE LOST (A) TRE(A)SURE FOUND, @nd TREASURE is one form of a star triangulation word.
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Post by rarbowen on Mar 7, 2019 14:08:34 GMT -5
Astree, please explain how you get 7-D, 26-D and 55-L without crossing letters? Thanks.
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