Nature of Fenn's Game

[indigojones]

Jul 9, 2020 9:00:16 GMT -5 sangre said:

To simplify the Nature of the puzzle:

1. The poem is a map. He gave instructions to use the poem as if were a road map to the chest.

2. The blueprint is challenging and he felt like an architect when constructing the poem

3. Get back in the box

4. Original poem title - “where the treasure lies” double entendre here? Is there a lie that we are supposed to be watching out for? Do coordinates lie in the poem somehow?

Hi 'sangre' what you say is very true. 

1."The poem is a map" and involves using geometry to help you with that map.

2. The blueprint of an architect would have used angles of geometry in it somewhere, do you not agree?

3. Get back in the box. In the whole 50 states of the USA there are only two that are true boxes, they are Wyoming and Colorado. Check it out! I chose Colorado as it simply is the only state related to 'Color'

4. Not too sure on your coordinates idea though.

indigo.

[sangre]

indigo, I sure hope you’re right! And I like the idea of the geometric solution. But I might need to brush up on my knowledge of trigonometry before I continue down that path. why does the phrase SOH CAH TOA keep ringing in my ears?

[Apple]

Jul 9, 2020 11:58:31 GMT -5 indigojones said:

Jul 9, 2020 9:00:16 GMT -5 sangre said:

To simplify the Nature of the puzzle:

1. The poem is a map. He gave instructions to use the poem as if were a road map to the chest.
2. The blueprint is challenging and he felt like an architect when constructing the poem
3. Get back in the box
4. Original poem title - “where the treasure lies” double entendre here? Is there a lie that we are supposed to be watching out for? Do coordinates lie in the poem somehow?

Hi 'sangre' what you say is very true. 

1."The poem is a map" and involves using geometry to help you with that map.
2. The blueprint of an architect would have used angles of geometry in it somewhere, do you not agree?
3. Get back in the box. In the whole 50 states of the USA there are only two that are true boxes, they are Wyoming and Colorado. Check it out! I chose Colorado as it simply is the only state related to 'Color'
4. Not too sure on your coordinates idea though.

indigo.

Hi Sangre and Indigo, I would simplify it as follows:

1.  Use the "poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of [Fenn's] rainbow and the treasure" (TTOTC p.132).

2. "All that will be needed are the clues, some resolve, and a little imagination……….." (TTOTC book jacket).

That is, the poem is important.  (Duh, I hope).

3. "There are also subtle clues sprinkled in the stories" (TTOTC p.133).

4. "Start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in [TTOTC] are not that organized" (MW Featured Question 12/11/14).

5. "All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in [TTOTC] have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker" (Is the Book Important?...).

6. "Read [TTOTC] in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read [TTOTC] again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues" (Holly Johnson Interview 7/8/13).

That is, TTOTC is important.  I wince when someone comments that they have not read TTOTC.

7. Fenn alludes multiple times to hidden information waiting to be discovered.

8. Paraphrasing several statements by Fenn, "the poem is a work of architecture."

9. Paraphrasing several statements by Fenn, "decipher or decrypt the clues that are in the poem."

I acknowledge some uncertainty at this point.  The structure of the poem matters and this structure will presumably reveal hidden information.  The structure could be related to geometry as Indigo suggests, but I'm not going to limit myself to that idea.

10. Application of a method variously described as mechanical, magical, or rule following will reveal hidden information in the poem.

I acknowledge some high, thin limb climbing here.  The hidden information could be coordinates (in the sense of, for example, UTM) as Sangre suggests, but I'm not going to limit myself to that idea.

11. TTOTC is more an instruction manual on this method than a memoir.

12. Many scrapbooks and other writings serve to further clarify the instructions in TTOTC.

13. This method includes: reversals, phonetics, circling, names, partnering, and jumping.

I acknowledge lots of floundering in the deep end.  I'm at rope's end here.  Maybe if I was two sigma smarter...

[sangre]

That’s a great summary Jeff. I think it comes down to taking a leap of faith. You don’t know what method is correct until you try. If there’s a phone cord in the poem, how do you know that phone cord isn’t correct until you actually go there BOTG?

[jdiggins]

Jul 7, 2020 1:51:55 GMT -5 indigojones said:

Jul 6, 2020 10:57:13 GMT -5 Apple said:

Hi Indigo, I will need to sit down and read your posts, you've posted a lot! Just superficially skimming them reminds me in the most general of ways of SB151 A Stellar Solution. I think I'm going to post something about SB151 and then try to find all your posts. Do you have a recommendation on where to start?

One point. Anagrams are problematic in that there are too many degrees of freedom. I don't mean to imply that Fenn didn't use anagrams (only Fenn, his collaborators, and maybe the finder know this for certain at this point) or that someone can't construct a puzzle that positively reinforces the correct use of an anagram (e.g. pick up any cryptic crossword). I approach anagrams with considerable care and skepticism.

Hi jeff, sorry I have posted rather a lot. My 'Just Amazed' thread may be a good place to start. Where I state where to begin. Then on to 'It's in the mix' which relates to forming the prism.

Scrapbook 94 'The Phantom' which I believe was written by Forrest, has some hints in it. There are two words in caps: 
'IS' and also 'NO MORE' put together we have IS NO MORE which may relate to the ghost town of Adelaide as none of it remains. NO MORE could also relate to Moreno (brown).

Towards the end there are the lines: "looking through a prism of vodka raspberry and lime"

Also the lines "how deeper then must I explore" quoth the Phantom 4-2-4 only this and nothing more" This is what made me think of Colorado being split into two groups of four and anagrammed as it is the only even lettered state. Doing so gives us 'LOCO ROAD' which Phantom Canyon Road is, formerly a railroad line hauling gold ore from Cripple Creek and Victor gold mines to Florence for milling.

The reason I have skipped around a lot is because I believe we have two puzzles to contend with, suggested to me by the strange order of the poem's Stanzas.  Stanzas 2, 3 and 4 hold the location clues and 2,3 4 add to 9. Whereas Stanzas 1,5,6 add to 12, the Zodiac puzzle, when you arrive at the circular cistern to confirm where to look and dig.
I am currently trying to explore uploading some workings and photos but am not that accomplished at uploading stuff.

indigo

Doing so gives us 'LOCO ROAD

Also gives

COOL ROAD

[jdiggins]

Indigo,
I have to say, one of the best solves I've read.

[indigojones]

Jul 14, 2020 8:59:23 GMT -5 jdiggins said:

Indigo,
I have to say, one of the best solves I've read.

Thank you jdiggins. I like your 'COOL ROAD' that's pretty cool too  I trust the directness of my solution, I have faith in it, I have never deviated from the rainbow path as it all makes sense to the end.

indigo

[sangre]

“phone cords” being short for “phonetic coordinates”

[pb123]

Hi Jeff
I've been contemplating the idea of reversal, mirror images, heads and tails etc. and, in my efforts to try to keep it simple (kids might have an advantage - adults get sucked into the vortex of the rabbit hole), have come up with a different approach. What if the reversal has nothing to do with the architectural structure of the poem at all. It seems that Forrest whinces every time someone tries to change it. So I started wondering about words that say one thing yet mean something completely different.

I only began ferreting around with this today, so excuse the lack of concrete ideas. How about idioms. Most people use them, but are often unaware that they do. They just come naturally, for the most part (There are some that are more colloquial than others.) Here's a refresher on what they are, just from a google search:

a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., rain cats and dogs, see the light ).

Hmmm, sounds like a good place to hide something.

Here's an example of one I spotted in the BESSIE AND ME chapter (yes, so I'm still in hint-land at the moment)

Forrest tied Bessie's tail to the milking stool. Pretty soon he ended up falling into a fresh cow pie.

So... he was caught between two stools (get it? an idiom).
He would be clubbed if he didn't tie her, so used the alternative, which didn't work either.

Here's another, which better shows the reversal:
Forrest's ball of string - P.128 TTOTC
"Then one afternoon when I walked home from school in the rain my string had disappeared."
We know that Forrest used to lie on his pillow in his bedroom, in the window. Multiple window references.
"Out the window" is an idiom for disappeared. The phantom ball couldn't fit through the door, so had to go through the window. His mother didn't answer him, when questioned, she was just looking through the window.

So, Forrest gives us "disappeared" and we figure out the that the ball went out the window. What does that give us? Just a reversal from idiom meaning to the idiom iself? I don't know.

I found plenty more today, but for those that want to get to the nitty gritty, I have this possibility:

Begin it where warm waters halt

When hell freezes over
(another idiom if you haven't fallen asleep)

Forrest used "diabolically opposite," on a couple of occasions, in place of diametrically (thanks zaphod!).

Makes one think of Devil's slide, Devil's Punchbowl etc...

Oh well, just my thoughts of today.

As Gandalf might say, "Keep IT secret, keep IT safe."

pb

[Apple]

Hi pb123, I agree that the ironic use or just the misuse of idioms are at least a recurring feature of Fenn's writing, particularly in TTOTC.  Your example of "caught between two stools" is wonderful.

I do agree that in general simple is more elegant than complex.  However, from a puzzle construction point of view this needs to be balanced with difficulty and specificity.  I hope Fenn in his fifteen years of puzzle construction achieved all three of these in balance (usual caveat: I don't know unequivocally what type of puzzle he created nor if it is one that people would objectively regard as good or elegant or satisfying).

Specificity comes to mind with your initial application of your idea to the poem.  Fenn does say something to the effect that the person with the correct solution will move with confidence.  Translating poem lines to idioms introduces a certain level of uncertainty and then translating that to a geographic feature or instruction introduces a much greater level of uncertainty.  Additive or compounded uncertainty is not very confidence inspiring.

I think it's worth exploring Fenn's (mis)use of idioms because my contention is that the only purpose of his writings, and TTOTC in particular, is to enable us to arrive at the elegant, unambiguous, and thorough solution to the poem puzzle.  I might be wrong.  I'm probably wrong.  But if this was the method, it would be a pretty useless way to "encode" any additional information in the poem beyond just being unambiguous upfront.  If we're just expected to guess about images and connections produced by the poem, which we've all seen produce ten years of failed solutions (myself included), why would Fenn bother doing all this extra work to create a layer that just adds more guessing?  I do expect more from Fenn, although I'm prepared to be disappointed.

[hoosierdaddy72]

Jul 20, 2020 16:40:00 GMT -5 Apple said:

Hi pb123, I agree that the ironic use or just the misuse of idioms are at least a recurring feature of Fenn's writing, particularly in TTOTC.  Your example of "caught between two stools" is wonderful.

I do agree that in general simple is more elegant than complex.  However, from a puzzle construction point of view this needs to be balanced with difficulty and specificity.  I hope Fenn in his fifteen years of puzzle construction achieved all three of these in balance (usual caveat: I don't know unequivocally what type of puzzle he created nor if it is one that people would objectively regard as good or elegant or satisfying).

Specificity comes to mind with your initial application of your idea to the poem.  Fenn does say something to the effect that the person with the correct solution will move with confidence.  Translating poem lines to idioms introduces a certain level of uncertainty and then translating that to a geographic feature or instruction introduces a much greater level of uncertainty.  Additive or compounded uncertainty is not very confidence inspiring.

I think it's worth exploring Fenn's (mis)use of idioms because my contention is that the only purpose of his writings, and TTOTC in particular, is to enable us to arrive at the elegant, unambiguous, and thorough solution to the poem puzzle.  I might be wrong.  I'm probably wrong.  But if this was the method, it would be a pretty useless way to "encode" any additional information in the poem beyond just being unambiguous upfront.  If we're just expected to guess about images and connections produced by the poem, which we've all seen produce ten years of failed solutions (myself included), why would Fenn bother doing all this extra work to create a layer that just adds more guessing?  I do expect more from Fenn, although I'm prepared to be disappointed.

---
Jeff, you have some interesting thoughts on Fenn's system he might have used. I can't escape his quote that his poem 'looks like simple words' or 'I looked up the meaning of words. You know, we really don’t know what some of our words mean.'

My solution involved the use of alternate definitions to the 'simple words' in his poem taken straight from Merriam-Webster. Of course there's no way to prove it, but it was uncanny to me how this pattern matched up to a Yellowstone backcountry trail with all 9 clues showing up in order. FWIW, I'll post a link if you're interested.

www.dropbox.com/s/lgh54c66tsfbi67/hoosierdaddy solve.pdf?dl=0

www.dropbox.com/s/o0l5sv3zuyx387z/fenn solve map.jpg?dl=0

You seem analytical and I'd appreciate any criticisms of my line of thinking. I'm admittedly not as up on the Fenn saga as many others.

[jdiggins]

Jul 9, 2020 11:58:31 GMT -5 indigojones said:

Jul 9, 2020 9:00:16 GMT -5 sangre said:

To simplify the Nature of the puzzle:

1. The poem is a map. He gave instructions to use the poem as if were a road map to the chest.

2. The blueprint is challenging and he felt like an architect when constructing the poem

3. Get back in the box

4. Original poem title - “where the treasure lies” double entendre here? Is there a lie that we are supposed to be watching out for? Do coordinates lie in the poem somehow?

Hi 'sangre' what you say is very true. 

1."The poem is a map" and involves using geometry to help you with that map.

2. The blueprint of an architect would have used angles of geometry in it somewhere, do you not agree?

3. Get back in the box. In the whole 50 states of the USA there are only two that are true boxes, they are Wyoming and Colorado. Check it out! I chose Colorado as it simply is the only state related to 'Color'

4. Not too sure on your coordinates idea though.

indigo.

Aide idea = hint. Several obvious sets of these hints. First being 4 corners.

The first line of the poem confirms your next 4 corners are a 303 area code.
Now here is where we differ...
Biwwwh=32 degrees from 4 corners, you also get confirmation of this from the studs in stanza one which equal 42 and 32.
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm sharing because of the similarities in our approach.

Also, footings of the poem spell:
Ladder days I dig

[Apple]

Jul 28, 2020 13:32:23 GMT -5 hoosierdaddy72 said:

Jeff, you have some interesting thoughts on Fenn's system he might have used. I can't escape his quote that his poem 'looks like simple words' or 'I looked up the meaning of words. You know, we really don’t know what some of our words mean.'

My solution involved the use of alternate definitions to the 'simple words' in his poem taken straight from Merriam-Webster. Of course there's no way to prove it, but it was uncanny to me how this pattern matched up to a Yellowstone backcountry trail with all 9 clues showing up in order. FWIW, I'll post a link if you're interested.

www.dropbox.com/s/lgh54c66tsfbi67/hoosierdaddy solve.pdf?dl=0

www.dropbox.com/s/o0l5sv3zuyx387z/fenn solve map.jpg?dl=0

You seem analytical and I'd appreciate any criticisms of my line of thinking. I'm admittedly not as up on the Fenn saga as many others.

Hi hoosierdaddy72, thank you for your solution and kind words.  Your solution makes sense.  It is similar in style to many posted solutions and has some substance of a smaller number of posted solutions.  Perhaps this is the method to solve Fenn's puzzle.  Part of my argument in this thread is that, if so, it wouldn't be a particularly elegant puzzle (admittedly subjective); why in Thor's name would it take him 15 years to create something like that; if similar strings of places can be pieced together just about anywhere one wants to look (including places outside the game boundaries, such as Alaska), how can anyone ever be confident in their solution; and does such uncertainty really speak to Fenn as having thought of everything?  These are arguments from the perspective of puzzle creation and aren't very strong on their own.  Some of my other arguments approach it from comments he made about the nature of the puzzle and yet other arguments approach it from possible interpretations of his scrapbooks.  Unfortunately, none of it is definitive but at least I tried to synthesize these together into a argument that Fenn hid critical information in the poem that can be extracted using a systematic method.  I wish Fenn would spill the beans, but I'm not expecting that to ever happen.

[indigojones]

Jul 29, 2020 6:54:29 GMT -5 jdiggins said:

Jul 9, 2020 11:58:31 GMT -5 indigojones said:

Hi 'sangre' what you say is very true. 

1."The poem is a map" and involves using geometry to help you with that map.

2. The blueprint of an architect would have used angles of geometry in it somewhere, do you not agree?

3. Get back in the box. In the whole 50 states of the USA there are only two that are true boxes, they are Wyoming and Colorado. Check it out! I chose Colorado as it simply is the only state related to 'Color'

4. Not too sure on your coordinates idea though.

indigo.

Aide idea = hint. Several obvious sets of these hints. First being 4 corners.

The first line of the poem confirms your next 4 corners are a 303 area code.
Now here is where we differ...
Biwwwh=32 degrees from 4 corners, you also get confirmation of this from the studs in stanza one which equal 42 and 32.
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm sharing because of the similarities in our approach.

Also, footings of the poem spell:
Ladder days I dig

Hi jdiggins, forgive my ignorance but I do not understand the studs you mention, or footings of the poem 'Ladder days I dig' perhaps you could enlighten me a bit more before I can comment.

[hoosierdaddy72]

Jul 29, 2020 13:00:21 GMT -5 Apple said:

Jul 28, 2020 13:32:23 GMT -5 hoosierdaddy72 said:

Jeff, you have some interesting thoughts on Fenn's system he might have used. I can't escape his quote that his poem 'looks like simple words' or 'I looked up the meaning of words. You know, we really don’t know what some of our words mean.'

My solution involved the use of alternate definitions to the 'simple words' in his poem taken straight from Merriam-Webster. Of course there's no way to prove it, but it was uncanny to me how this pattern matched up to a Yellowstone backcountry trail with all 9 clues showing up in order. FWIW, I'll post a link if you're interested.

www.dropbox.com/s/lgh54c66tsfbi67/hoosierdaddy solve.pdf?dl=0

www.dropbox.com/s/o0l5sv3zuyx387z/fenn solve map.jpg?dl=0

You seem analytical and I'd appreciate any criticisms of my line of thinking. I'm admittedly not as up on the Fenn saga as many others.

Hi hoosierdaddy72, thank you for your solution and kind words.  Your solution makes sense.  It is similar in style to many posted solutions and has some substance of a smaller number of posted solutions.  Perhaps this is the method to solve Fenn's puzzle.  Part of my argument in this thread is that, if so, it wouldn't be a particularly elegant puzzle (admittedly subjective); why in Thor's name would it take him 15 years to create something like that; if similar strings of places can be pieced together just about anywhere one wants to look (including places outside the game boundaries, such as Alaska), how can anyone ever be confident in their solution; and does such uncertainty really speak to Fenn as having thought of everything?  These are arguments from the perspective of puzzle creation and aren't very strong on their own.  Some of my other arguments approach it from comments he made about the nature of the puzzle and yet other arguments approach it from possible interpretations of his scrapbooks.  Unfortunately, none of it is definitive but at least I tried to synthesize these together into a argument that Fenn hid critical information in the poem that can be extracted using a systematic method.  I wish Fenn would spill the beans, but I'm not expecting that to ever happen.

----

Jeff,  I believe I get what you're saying about critical info in the poem and using a systematic method.  That's the route I had been trying to take with much frustration.  What I came up with was the closest I could get to a system but it still left me with some nagging doubts.  However, I guess in the back of my mind I wonder if there's as much 'architecture' as he is claiming.  Not because my ego is hurt because I couldn't solve it, but because vast numbers of people couldn't solve it and the solve won't be revealed by Fenn or the 'finder' to confirm how genius it actually was.  The poem really boils down to 3 scenarios:  1) Genius  2) Poorly constructed and stumbled upon  3) Hoax.  I'm ready and waiting to be blown away by it all but I'm too big of a skeptic to call something one of the greatest puzzles of all time without proof.  As my grandfather would say, 'don't buy a pig in a poke'.

As far as his self-proclaimed 'architect' status, I really want to believe it.  However, if you're a Seinfeld fan, I can't help but think of another self-proclaimed architect by the name of George Costanza.  Calling yourself an architect and being an architect are two different things.  Who knows, maybe when the finder is finally revealed it will be Art Vandelay!

It's been a fun ride and we enjoyed a fun family trip to Yellowstone that was treasure in and of itself.  I think it's time for my brain to rest on the whole matter and (hopefully) see something on the news one of these days that the location or finder got revealed!