|
|
Post by Jenny on Aug 19, 2019 7:56:45 GMT -5
Alright, here y'all go: WWWH:
Cold mountain creeks empty into water rivers (this is where fish feed, Forrest is a fisherman). In this case of Fenn's poem, the warm waters halt where they empty into a lake.
While this is correct, I was going to start revealing the answers to the clues, but decided to go a different direction Since the ending didn't turn up the Chest..... let's look at the beginning...... Is this correct? Can we prove it incorrect? What are the items/facts/statements by Forrest that are 'pro' for this interpretation? Are there any that discredit it? I like the possibility..... Forrest has said in a 2014 FQ on MW (shown below):,---and there are many 'lakes' which 'warm waters' halt north of Santa Fe. Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
.
There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. fAlso, in TTOTC, Forrest says Spring is Warm..... Could this be one of the 'Subtle Hints'? Are they Spring Waters? Page 42: "In the Spring when the weather is warm.."Is there anything to discount or exclude 'Lakes' from making the interpretation of WWWH to be one? |
|
|
|
Post by zaphod73491 on Aug 19, 2019 12:51:10 GMT -5
Hi Jenny: I don't see anything inherently wrong with the possibility that a lake is Forrest's WWWH. But how to choose which one? You can't pick one at random, or decide on one only because of hints outside the poem. The information must be contained within the poem. And that lake probably can't be too large (e.g. Yellowstone Lake) because that would seem to be contradicted by this 2013 message from Dal to dollarbill:
Nine Clues part 25, posted by Dal on 12/29/2013 at 12:41am: "$bill-I agree.. Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong… That it was a specific place and not a region… Which suggests to me that it could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains… as has been suggested in other posts on this blog.."
When Forrest stresses the importance of "nailing down" the first clue, it suggests to me a VERY specific starting location -- a point on the map. A lake is more a region (just as YNP is a region).
|
|
|
|
Post by minotaurmoreno on Aug 19, 2019 13:24:40 GMT -5
"There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe." @jenny (or anyone else for that matter), in your opinion, where is the southernmost edge that is still considered the Rocky Mountains in New Mexico? |
|
|
|
Post by Jenny on Aug 19, 2019 14:01:25 GMT -5
Hi Jenny: I don't see anything inherently wrong with the possibility that a lake is Forrest's WWWH. But how to choose which one? You can't pick one at random, or decide on one only because of hints outside the poem. The information must be contained within the poem. And that lake probably can't be too large (e.g. Yellowstone Lake) because that would seem to be contradicted by this 2013 message from Dal to dollarbill: Nine Clues part 25, posted by Dal on 12/29/2013 at 12:41am: "$bill-I agree.. Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong… That it was a specific place and not a region… Which suggests to me that it could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains… as has been suggested in other posts on this blog.." When Forrest stresses the importance of "nailing down" the first clue, it suggests to me a VERY specific starting location -- a point on the map. A lake is more a region (just as YNP is a region). Great thoughts....Thank you Zap.... I see the issue of how to choose 'which one' an issue for what/whereever a searcher interprets Warm Waters to be. In that Q/A posted above, Forrest has said- "There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f" - so if a searcher's WWWH is a singular type, it would seem to go against Forrest saying there are many. But of course, with possible additional hints given in the Poem, or in some process of following the clues of the poem (maybe just by the subsequent clues falling elegantly into place), there is a way to identify the correct WWWH and possibly know you have that location 'nailed down'. (but this also suggests you should have the chest) While that comment from Forrest has him saying it is not the full area of YNP, as the park is not a specific enough place, we are not sure of how specific or small of a place WWWH is to Forrest. Sure, it would be great to think, it is 'at the exact point where this and this connect' or 'at the spot where this happens'---- but it might still be a 'lake'. And then you 'take it in the canyon down'. I would love to think it has to be a very specific- small- location.... but size is relative--- like a mud puddle is huge to an ant. So maybe a lake is specific enough when considering the entire Rocky Mountains to Forrest...?? Is there anything Forrest has suggested to say it isn't ....other than what Dal said he said..(which I do believe is credible, but doesn't allow us to fully discount all 'lakes' as a possibility)--- If there is ONLY one canyon down from 'your lake' it seems it would be fine.... and even if there are several canyons down from 'your lake/WWWH', it still might be ok...because we are told to put in below the hoB (and the hoB seems to be a singular location-- and not found in every canyon).... (and just to add-- I not for/against WWWH being a lake......just trying to decide if a lake can be discounted) |
|
|
|
Post by zaphod73491 on Aug 19, 2019 17:11:59 GMT -5
Hi Jenny: as you point out, we don't know just how "specific" Forrest's "specific place" is; we only know that YNP is too large (even though it's certainly a "specific place" -- it just happens to be huge). Would the town of West Yellowstone (or Ouray, or Kirwin, or any other town a searcher favors) qualify as small enough to be a specific place in Forrest's mind? For what it's worth, my WWWH is bigger than a breadbox, but far, far smaller than anything that would be considered a lake; even a pond is probably too large. But from the totality of Forrest's ATFs, I cannot logically exclude a lake from the list of possibilities -- particularly if it feeds a unique canyon. But the poem would have to specifically identify that lake -- and do so without the benefit of having an obvious nearby "home of Brown" since plenty of 1- and 2-clue solvers (but not three!) managed to figure it out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jenny on Aug 19, 2019 19:06:59 GMT -5
They may have mentioned the correct 'WWWH'(and a few subsequent clues), along with their thought process to Forrest, but we don't know if that thought process to identify WWWH was just a general matter of saying--- 'My solution is that 'Warm Waters of June flow into Lake X, and I took the X canyon down' and then blah blah blah....' (X's would be specific names)
We don't know the poem doesn't work as simple as that...... clues placed to a map but without any real glue...
And unfortunately, what leans to this as a possibility is the Chest wasn't found by those searchers who are said to have identified those first clues by Forrest. Is this because they didn't have enough confidence in their 'WWWH' to KNOW they had identified the correct WWWH-- to then pursue and identify the other clues/locations-- because there isn't any?
We are all looking for that 'confirmer' of a correct WWWH which leads to the chest..... but is there a confirmer? (besides the Chest)
I agree the poem SHOULD specifically identify which or where warm waters halt before one finds the chest to do so... but does it for sure???
And let me say, I have/had working solutions where the WWWH is confirmed by other hints in the poem, and subsequent clues falling into place, etc. etc. --- but..... It's interpretation.....and that varies among searchers....
I suppose it comes down to the fact you must choose your interpretations wisely...... and you won't know for certainty until the chest is found that you are correct, or that you are wrong if the chest isn't there.
|
|
|
|
Post by astree on Aug 20, 2019 5:27:28 GMT -5
.
I fully believe that the poem is very specific about which of the thousands (millions?) of warm water to begin at. No guessing, no interpretation, in the correct solution.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jenny on Aug 20, 2019 5:55:00 GMT -5
. I fully believe that the poem is very specific about which of the thousands (millions?) of warm water to begin at. No guessing, no interpretation, in the correct solution. The very second you start reading the poem, you begin interpreting it. And while you believe your solution might not need interpreted, to get to that point you had to interpret. You can't be 100% certain you are correct in your interpretations until you have the chest in hand. |
|
|
|
Post by voxpops on Aug 20, 2019 7:29:43 GMT -5
"There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f"
Anyone familiar with crosswords will note a couple of things here: "over simplify" and "short cuts." Both are normally a single word: "oversimplify" and "shortcuts." If we are talking about a short cut, it doesn't mean a foreshortened journey (although I don't think there are any shortcuts to be had either!), but the opposite of a long cut. So by saying "no short cuts" it has a meaning not far removed from the idea behind the song, The First Cut is the Deepest. You are going to make a large incision (a little like the SB picture of the long scratch on FF's table). As for "over simplify," that might well suggest that we turn "simplify" over. The result of that is a nice little anagram that you might want to put aside for later use.
Then there's "discount." If it's risky to discount, it might be better to...
I don't think we can afford to be lax when reading FF's written quotes.
Going back to the latter part of the quote, it's important to really analyze what he's saying. If there are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, unless the poem unequivocally tells us which one, we're either stuck (and let's face it, searchers must have tried just about every WWWH, hoB and blaze combination by now), or we're just going to have to pick one - and stick with it. And how can that possibly work - this isn't a lottery? Forrest has said that the person who can best adjust is going to be the winner. So, by a process of deep thinking, application of logic, awareness, tenacity, perseverance and multiple adjustments, the answer will eventually emerge. And here's the important bit: there will be help along the way - not just in ATFs etc., but out there, on the ground and in the aberrations we notice - as long as we pay attention.
So what about this "long" cut? That's something personal, and likely painful for a while. But the end result may just be a clearer vision, and a better understanding of where warm waters REALLY halt.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jenny on Aug 20, 2019 7:41:23 GMT -5
. Interesting, but it is a common viewpoint. How do you square the interpretation aspect with forrests varied comments about having specific solution that leads directly to the chest with certainty (which to me, implies not relying on interpretation.) ? Maybe the word ‘interpretation’ is too loose. I think you misunderstand what I am suggesting.... There is ONE interpretation of the poem that will prove correct. The one which leads a searcher to the chest. However, a searcher will not know they have that 'correct solution' (which does require interpretation of the Poem lines), until they have chest in hand. I feel this is supported by the fact of so many searchers claiming they know where it is or feel the chest is missing once they get to their spot. They think 'their interpretations' are correct, but are/were they? Is yours? Do you or anyone else have the chest? If not, how can you be certain you have discovered the correct solution? Forrest himself said you won't know until you have the chest in hand. One person will move with certainty.....and find the chest....eventually. That is true. But there are numerous others who have felt they were moving with all certainty, but discovered their interpretations were wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by astree on Aug 20, 2019 9:10:34 GMT -5
Jenny,
I think I understood what you were saying. So metime typing is difficult for me. I agree that there should be only one correct interpretation of the puzzle, but I don't think it will be based on unsubstantiated guessing. A correct solve should be self-evident. I was using what I took as your use of "interpretation" to mean "guessed-at/unfounded" interpretation, so if my read on that was wrong, then I hope that clarifies my response.
How will that one person move with certainty, without confirmation that their interpretation is correct, and as Forrest intended? How can one be certain that there are not other equally (or more) valid interpretations, without trying out all possible combinations of starting points (including various interpretations of that starting points, and points along the way)? I suggest that this is a trap of the puzzle (one of many) that need to be worked through.
astree
|
|
|
|
Post by Jenny on Aug 20, 2019 18:59:47 GMT -5
Some of my questioning is from the following Q/A with Forrest: (posted on MW in May 2019)19)How will I know if I have the clues right before my family and me drives out to get the treasure?
You probably won’t |
|
|
|
Post by astree on Aug 20, 2019 19:42:17 GMT -5
Some of my questioning is from the following Q/A with Forrest: (posted on MW in May 2019)19)How will I know if I have the clues right before my family and me drives out to get the treasure?
You probably won’tThanks for posting that Jenny. Interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by Bownarrow on Aug 21, 2019 1:34:35 GMT -5
Some of my questioning is from the following Q/A with Forrest: (posted on MW in May 2019)19)How will I know if I have the clues right before my family and me drives out to get the treasure?
You probably won’t“I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
Interesting to compare the above two statements.
|
|
