|
|
Post by zupzel on Feb 11, 2020 20:03:31 GMT -5
I haven't bothered looking at this puzzle (too much time involved lol!) but thought I would mention what immediately struck me when I first read the poem. I thought "As I go alone in there" might mean I go alone = solo in "there" would make Rose Hotel. There is a Midnight Rose Hotel/Casino in Cripple Creek, Colorado. Probably nothing but might be useful to someone.
|
|
|
|
Post by seannm on Feb 11, 2020 20:22:24 GMT -5
All, As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old. Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. And that’s the first few clues. Seems pretty simple to me that they could simply be the sentences. Seannm Seannm: nope. There are no clues in the first stanza. That would violate Forrest's statements that the clues are consecutive, sequential and contiguous. If "Begin it where warm waters halt" is the first clue, you can't backtrack and have later clues in the first stanza. And you can't have the first clue in the first stanza because that would violate WWWH being clue #1. For me, the Occam's Razor answer is that there are 4 clues in the second stanza, zero in the first. That satisfies all the ATFs. That said, WWWH cannot be completely solved in isolation, in my opinion. You need information from the first stanza. Zaphod, Seeing as Forrest has never said that the first stanza is not a clue, then it may be a risky assumption to infer that it isn't a clue, I mean there are at least two, possibly three, nouns in the first stanza, are we to ignore them? And I'm not saying people are ignoring the first stanza, they just don't see it as a clue, which is fine I just see it differently. Now if one interprets the word first. as in the first clue is BIWWWH, to mean: first in the numerical order of things, then his consecutive, sequential and contiguous could then be interpreted to mean that the first stanza would not be one of the clues to them. Now what if one took an alternate meaning of the word first which is: foremost in position, rank, or importance. Would it not then make sense that BIWWWH is the clue that is first or foremost in position, rank or importance because as Forrest has told us many times: we must first figure out WWWH, if we don't have that then we don't have anything, if you don't have that one nailed down, you might as well stay home and play Canasta. So it is the first clue we must figure out, but it may not be the first clue that we read when we read the poem, thus the first stanza could still possibly be a clue, and those that follow are still consecutive, sequential and contiguous as we see them and read them in the poem. I agree that BIWWWH cannot be completely solved in isolation, as you say. You do need more information, more ingredients. I am of the belief that those ingredients are found in the remainder of that sentence, and the rest of the poem as a whole. And for me, I too apply Occam's Razor, in the idea that he told us there are nine clues in his poem, for what I believe is a specific reason, and the simplest answer is the nine sentences that are "hidden" within the poem. And I find it funny that you think the first stanza cannot be a clue, but you believe that you need the first stanza to figure out WWWH.  Seannm |
|
|
|
Post by flyjack on Feb 11, 2020 21:16:01 GMT -5
The first clue that takes you to the treasure is BIWWH, whereas a hint helps with a clue. There is likely a hint(s) in the first stanza.
FENN: "Well, there are nine clues in my poem and one is in my book. And I’m not going to give any more clues. I’m.. there are hints in my book that will help you with the clues.. A clue will point you toward the treasure chest, and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that."
|
|
|
|
Post by goldilocks on Feb 11, 2020 21:24:50 GMT -5
Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe labeling 9 clues as such is a brilliantly crafted distraction by Forrest. Just look at the time and energy we spend debating what’s a clue and what isn’t, where do they start and where do they end. Imagine if there aren’t 9 clues necessary to solve this. He said there are 9 clues but who says we need them all. Maybe this is the riddle. How many searchers does it take to change a lightbulb...😂
|
|
|
|
Post by seannm on Feb 11, 2020 21:29:47 GMT -5
Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe labeling 9 clues as such is a brilliantly crafted distraction by Forrest. Just look at the time and energy we spend debating what’s a clue and what isn’t, where do they start and where do they end. Imagine if there aren’t 9 clues necessary to solve this. He said there are 9 clues but who says we need them all. Maybe this is the riddle. Goldi, I think it is important that he told us that there are nine clues in his poem. And as I have said many times it matter not what they are if one can understand the poem and circumstance themselves to the treasure. But Forrest telling us that there are in fact nine clues was his way of maybe hinting at something that helps us not only identify what they are but that which is important in deciphering them. Seannm |
|
|
|
Post by flyjack on Feb 11, 2020 21:31:28 GMT -5
Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe labeling 9 clues as such is a brilliantly crafted distraction by Forrest. Just look at the time and energy we spend debating what’s a clue and what isn’t, where do they start and where do they end. Imagine if there aren’t 9 clues necessary to solve this. He said there are 9 clues but who says we need them all. Maybe this is the riddle. How many searchers does it take to change a lightbulb...😂 The 9 clues point to the treasure chest, there are also hints that help with the clues. The 9 clues "create" a map to the chest. The hints do not. That is way I see it. |
|
|
|
Post by zaphod73491 on Feb 12, 2020 0:53:19 GMT -5
Hi Seannm: full disclosure: I once felt 100% confident that the first clue was in the first stanza because it was an integral part of the solution to WWWH. I could *still* argue that what's in that stanza ~should~ count as a clue because without it you don't have the precise starting point.
But Forrest has a different view: that BIWWWH is the first clue (and, no, I'm not a fan of alternative definitions of "first": that would be deceptive). So I modified my thinking once the NZ interview came to light. It's really just a case of semantics in my view: WWWH is the first clue -- the critical starting point -- but line 5 is incomplete by itself. It is the broad part of the answer, but it isn't actionable without what precedes it.
It reminds me of "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly": WWWH is our "Arch Stanton". If Arch Stanton is all you've got, you aren't going to find the loot. The first stanza is what tells you it's in the unmarked grave *next to* Stanton's grave.
9 sentences = 9 clues is a long road to hoe because it is at odds with so many things Forrest has said. You have to twist yourself into a pretzel trying to manufacture excuses for all of them, when it is so much simpler to abandon the hypothesis. Besides, Forrest doesn't strike me as the sort to be so simple, conventional, and mathematically predictable to force exactly 1 clue per sentence.
|
|
|
|
Post by seannm on Apr 6, 2020 21:43:56 GMT -5
All,
Here is a thought:
Forrest says in the 2018 Six Questions:
Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve.
And Forrest says, in the 2013 TFTW book signing video: (paraphrased)
If a searcher was to read the poem over and over and was able to decipher the first few clues they could find the treasure, it may not be easy but it certainly isn't impossible.
And lastly Forrest wrote in a 2017 periodic words:
To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid the treasure before the poem was complete. (completed).
So I ask: Are these first few clues the same clues that Forrest followed when he hid the treasure chest? This doesn't mean that he didn't know or already have a good portion of the poem completed, it (the poem) just wasn't complete until it was sent to the publisher for print. If so then what does this tell us about the remaining six clues in the poem? What do they do for us?
And lastly, does the blaze even fall within those first few clues?
Seannm
|
|
|
|
Post by seannm on Apr 7, 2020 9:32:50 GMT -5
All,
Good morning, here is a what if for you all.
What if the first stanza is from the perspective of Forrest going alone into that place that a person would not normally go, that isolated location his “secret where”. And that precise point in space, from which he went “alone in there”, is the physical embodiment that “from there” represents. Go back and read the final paragraph in the chapter “Surviving Myself” and think about this idea, and the words he writes in that paragraph.
a few paraphrased mentions that stand out to me:
Sometimes when it wasn’t too cold (effort worth the cold)
just a block north of our house (below the home of)
It took guts to go in there when it was dark and no moon (no place for the meek)
I still remember the sense of accomplishment I felt (your effort will be worth the cold)
I wasn’t even afraid (if you are brave)
And recall Forrest said, in the Lure interview: “I don’t know that anybody has told me the nine clues in the right order”
It’s possible that while nine clues are in consecutive order as we view and or read them in the poem, the order may be different once we decipher and follow them in the physical world.
Just “The Flip Side” view on this.
Seannm
|
|
|
|
Post by seannm on Apr 22, 2020 17:21:32 GMT -5
All, I have thought this for some time, but want to share it with you now. What if, warm waters halt is not a clue, only part of the clue? Now I know Forrest has said many times that the first clue is "Begin it where warm waters halt" but what if that isn't ALL of the truth? Let me explain. Forrest said, in a 2017 periodic words: To answer some questions and save others from being asked I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (completed?). f mysteriouswritings.com/periodic-words-from-forrest-fenn-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt/ First off I have to ask: in what context or definition are we to assume he means by his choice of the word "followed". Are we to infer that it means in the literal meaning as in physically following the clues from the first to the last, or is it in the figurative meaning as in understood or comprehended the clues from the first to the last. But let us go with the literal as in he followed the clues from first to last when he physically hid the treasure. If this is the case and we believe that the first clue is simply "begin it where warm waters halt", then we too must believe, if Forrest is being completely truthful, that he started at whatever warm waters halt is and then followed the other eight clues in consecutive order to the treasures final resting place, twice in one afternoon. But if the poem, that was written by Forrest, says: "and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk", then by the authors words, is it not too far to walk for Forrest to walk, that being the distance from whatever warm waters halt is to the treasures final resting spot, twice in one afternoon? I believe so! Consider the following quote from Forrest: It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.people.com/celebrity/author-forrest-fenn-talks-about-missing-treasure-hunter/So he himself has said, in the above provided link, that he, himself an 80 year old man, is not going to make a trip into a canyon (with the treasure contents), then come back up (to retrieve second half of treasure, aka the chest) and go back down again, and oh don't forget the return trip to the car to go home if he wasn't going to intern himself there. Thus he didn't park his car at whatever warm waters halt is and walk into the canyon from there, right? So "begin it where warm waters halt" may not be where Forrest himself started literally following the clues in the poem when he hid the treasure, thus it may not be ALL of the first clue or where we too must start following the clues when we go to recover it. So either Forrest was using the word "followed" in the figurative sense as in he understood the clues in the poem before he hid the treasure and so he started somewhere else along the clue path, or warm waters halt is not ALL of the first clue. And as I have said many times over the last four years: Warm waters halt is not the first clue, where is. Seannm |
|
|
|
Post by harrytruman on Apr 22, 2020 20:03:14 GMT -5
So either Forrest was using the word "followed" in the figurative sense as in he understood the clues in the poem before he hid the treasure and so he started somewhere else along the clue path, or warm waters halt is not ALL of the first clue. And as I have said many times over the last four years: Warm waters halt is not the first clue, where is. Seannm Nothing I have ever heard or read has ever made me think that Forrest parked his car at WWWH (as a necessary step in hiding the treasure). I absolutely think Forrest was using "followed" in a figurative sense, as he indicated was possible when he stated that "It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind." (In other words, the nine clues can be "followed" physically and mentally, but perhaps as many as eight of them can be followed just mentally -- though we also know "a physical presence is needed to complete the solve." This is why the LGFI can get "closer" than the first two clues, as long as she doesn't let her thinking get in a rut.) I also think this is about as clearcut as it gets: "You have to find out where the first clue is: where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue, and then take it from there." (And "begin it" there and "take it from there," etc., suggest to me that WWWH is where you start the journey defined by the path from the first clue/location to the ninth clue/location. So "first" is not about level of importance or degree of emphasis or anything else. It's simply "first" in the common-sense, ordinal definition of the term -- the kind of thing an "average person" would understand.) This also seems very straightforward to me: "The first clue in my poem is WWWH. I have said that several times over the years. If you can’t find that location you cannot find the treasure." Personally, I think about it like this. Someone has given us directions along the lines of "Start where First Avenue intersects with Main Street and head north several blocks. Turn right just past the brown building. Then go down that street and watch out for the potholes. Take a left and you will pass the railroad tracks and the public swimming pool. Then, once you've seen the big neon sign, get close to it and start looking for the building with the red door." (He's gone into that building by himself a few times, and it's where he went with the package he left for us to go pick up.) This person also published a book in which he told us that we'll find the correct intersection of First and Main in a small town somewhere west of the Mississippi River. He also included some hints that might help us identify that town, and he's indicated that we can find the town on a good map (which we'll probably need to do in order to make our way to it from our driveway). And, of course, we'll need the complete directions because there are many small towns west of the Mississippi with an intersecting First and Main, but fewer with a brown building several blocks north, even fewer with a perpendicular road with potholes, etc., and only one with an obviously correct neon sign and a nearby building with a red door -- and we'll need to correctly identify all of those locations before we know for sure that we have the correct starting location. (If we stop navel-gazing and start looking at the big picture, we'll understand all of this.) I know this might be the wrong way of thinking about the chase. But if it's not, why expend so much energy trying to establish whether the intersection of First and Main is a full clue or maybe just a partial clue? To me, that looks like a lot of overthinking (and thus overcomplicating) the problem. |
|
|
|
Post by brianu on Apr 22, 2020 20:38:26 GMT -5
I really like that description, I d bet that's a working solve right there!
|
|
|
|
Post by Jenny on Apr 23, 2020 6:05:51 GMT -5
So either Forrest was using the word "followed" in the figurative sense as in he understood the clues in the poem before he hid the treasure and so he started somewhere else along the clue path, or warm waters halt is not ALL of the first clue. And as I have said many times over the last four years: Warm waters halt is not the first clue, where is. Seannm Nothing I have ever heard or read has ever made me think that Forrest parked his car at WWWH (as a necessary step in hiding the treasure). I absolutely think Forrest was using "followed" in a figurative sense, as he indicated was possible when he stated that "It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind." (In other words, the nine clues can be "followed" physically and mentally, but perhaps as many as eight of them can be followed just mentally -- though we also know "a physical presence is needed to complete the solve." This is why the LGFI can get "closer" than the first two clues, as long as she doesn't let her thinking get in a rut.) I also think this is about as clearcut as it gets: "You have to find out where the first clue is: where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue, and then take it from there." (And "begin it" there and "take it from there," etc., suggest to me that WWWH is where you start the journey defined by the path from the first clue/location to the ninth clue/location. So "first" is not about level of importance or degree of emphasis or anything else. It's simply "first" in the common-sense, ordinal definition of the term -- the kind of thing an "average person" would understand.) This also seems very straightforward to me: "The first clue in my poem is WWWH. I have said that several times over the years. If you can’t find that location you cannot find the treasure." Personally, I think about it like this. Someone has given us directions along the lines of "Start where First Avenue intersects with Main Street and head north several blocks. Turn right just past the brown building. Then go down that street and watch out for the potholes. Take a left and you will pass the railroad tracks and the public swimming pool. Then, once you've seen the big neon sign, get close to it and start looking for the building with the red door." (He's gone into that building by himself a few times, and it's where he went with the package he left for us to go pick up.) This person also published a book in which he told us that we'll find the correct intersection of First and Main in a small town somewhere west of the Mississippi River. He also included some hints that might help us identify that town, and he's indicated that we can find the town on a good map (which we'll probably need to do in order to make our way to it from our driveway). And, of course, we'll need the complete directions because there are many small towns west of the Mississippi with an intersecting First and Main, but fewer with a brown building several blocks north, even fewer with a perpendicular road with potholes, etc., and only one with an obviously correct neon sign and a nearby building with a red door -- and we'll need to correctly identify all of those locations before we know for sure that we have the correct starting location. (If we stop navel-gazing and start looking at the big picture, we'll understand all of this.) I know this might be the wrong way of thinking about the chase. But if it's not, why expend so much energy trying to establish whether the intersection of First and Main is a full clue or maybe just a partial clue? To me, that looks like a lot of overthinking (and thus overcomplicating) the problem. Great Discussion! Love the example of 'why' the big picture is needed. And it is for that reason we look at all the many things 'on Forrest', because if we can find any hint towards narrowing down the numerous options, it will help..... |
|
|
|
Post by voxpops on Apr 23, 2020 6:21:26 GMT -5
Nothing I have ever heard or read has ever made me think that Forrest parked his car at WWWH (as a necessary step in hiding the treasure). I absolutely think Forrest was using "followed" in a figurative sense, as he indicated was possible when he stated that "It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind." (In other words, the nine clues can be "followed" physically and mentally, but perhaps as many as eight of them can be followed just mentally -- though we also know "a physical presence is needed to complete the solve." This is why the LGFI can get "closer" than the first two clues, as long as she doesn't let her thinking get in a rut.) I also think this is about as clearcut as it gets: "You have to find out where the first clue is: where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue, and then take it from there." (And "begin it" there and "take it from there," etc., suggest to me that WWWH is where you start the journey defined by the path from the first clue/location to the ninth clue/location. So "first" is not about level of importance or degree of emphasis or anything else. It's simply "first" in the common-sense, ordinal definition of the term -- the kind of thing an "average person" would understand.) This also seems very straightforward to me: "The first clue in my poem is WWWH. I have said that several times over the years. If you can’t find that location you cannot find the treasure." Personally, I think about it like this. Someone has given us directions along the lines of "Start where First Avenue intersects with Main Street and head north several blocks. Turn right just past the brown building. Then go down that street and watch out for the potholes. Take a left and you will pass the railroad tracks and the public swimming pool. Then, once you've seen the big neon sign, get close to it and start looking for the building with the red door." (He's gone into that building by himself a few times, and it's where he went with the package he left for us to go pick up.) This person also published a book in which he told us that we'll find the correct intersection of First and Main in a small town somewhere west of the Mississippi River. He also included some hints that might help us identify that town, and he's indicated that we can find the town on a good map (which we'll probably need to do in order to make our way to it from our driveway). And, of course, we'll need the complete directions because there are many small towns west of the Mississippi with an intersecting First and Main, but fewer with a brown building several blocks north, even fewer with a perpendicular road with potholes, etc., and only one with an obviously correct neon sign and a nearby building with a red door -- and we'll need to correctly identify all of those locations before we know for sure that we have the correct starting location. (If we stop navel-gazing and start looking at the big picture, we'll understand all of this.) I know this might be the wrong way of thinking about the chase. But if it's not, why expend so much energy trying to establish whether the intersection of First and Main is a full clue or maybe just a partial clue? To me, that looks like a lot of overthinking (and thus overcomplicating) the problem. Great Discussion! Love the example of 'why' the big picture is needed. And it is for that reason we look at all the many things 'on Forrest', because if we can find any hint towards narrowing down the numerous options, it will help..... I agree that it's really well put. But... From my point of view it was absolutely essential for FF to visit all three of the key locations: WWWH, hoB, and the hiding place. Missing out any one of those would not have accomplished his aim. IT wasn't just about hiding treasure, but influencing the future. As a consequence, I think it would be advisable for a confident searcher to start (physically) at the first clue, but then it's absolutely essential to "Put in below the home of Brown." Without doing that, I don't believe it's possible to get to the treasure. We shouldn't forget that FF agreed that it's like a scavenger hunt. This is connected to the reason that a physical presence is necessary to complete the solve. |
|
|
|
Post by seannm on Apr 23, 2020 8:43:00 GMT -5
All,
It is my opinion that Forrest is not telling us ALL of the truth when he says "The first clue is begin it where warm waters halt" for I don't believe that is a complete thought, nor is it a precise location that one could pin point on a map. But those who believe it is then try to figure out what warm waters halt is and then go looking to the first stanza for the answer to where warm waters halt so that they can then understand what it is, this is completely backwards in my opinion. But if I am correct that Forrest isn't telling us ALL of the truth about what the first clue is, then the information we need to know: where warm waters halt may be found in the remainder of that sentence.
Begin it where warm waters halt: Forrest said that Phil oversimplified this clue. Told Steve that he needed more ingredients.
Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.: This is a complete thought, and may contain all the ingredients for us to understand the correct starting point.
And in my interpretation it is the waters that were once warm, that have taken it in the canyon down, not far, but too far for Forrest to walk following them. Kinda like the preface to TFTW.
Most if not all canyons were created by water, and nearly all canyons have water running through them. There is a point, that cannot be precisely pinpointed, where those waters begin their decent into that respective canyon. This may be what the poem is referring to as the transition from warm, comfortable or calm waters halting and become rapids and or mean-looking white water, to quote Forrest (SB 248). So yes there are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt because there are many canyons in the Rocky Mountains, and nearly all of those canyons are north of Santa Fe. This may in part be why a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.
So I believe we are focusing on the wrong thing in that first clue, that being trying to figure out what warm waters halt is, but only because Forrest may not have told us ALL of the truth. But has Forrest ever told us that we need to figure out what warm waters halt is, NO!
So again I don't believe that whatever warm waters halt is our starting point as it cannot be precisely pinpointed on a map and even Forrest may not have started there, he may just be describing the where.
Seannm
|
|
